Evolution guitar and stand alone Kontakt

[AZeitung]

I made a post over at northernsounds before I realized that this forum existed. When I first made the post there, I didn't realize exactly what the problem is, but I just wanted to mention that there's a difficulty that arises when using the rhythm guitar patch in the stand alone version of Kontakt.

The rhythm guitar strumming engine apparently plays in synch with the Kontakt metronome. This isn't a problem when using Kontakt as a VST or RTAS inside of a sequencer, but I run Kontakt as a stand alone application on another computer and control it via midi. Because of this, the Kontakt metronome doesn't synch up with my DAW's metronome, and as far as I can tell, there's no way to make it do this (and I've checked for solutions online, too--it appears that other people have tried to do the same thing, to no avail, so I assume it can't be done).

This means that the strumming can be as much as half a beat out of synch with everything else I sequence, depending on when I hit the play button (and the same issue occurs when recording, obviously). I'm sure I can't be the only one who runs Kontakt like this. Has anyone else had this problem? Would it be possible to get a fix for this at some point in the future?

Other than that, it's a really nice library.

[tman2k (Meathook Audio)]

Hello AZeitung,

I may be way off here, but I have a feeling that may be a limitation with Kontakt itself...

Or, do you have other libraries that sync up OK?

[AZeitung]

Hello AZeitung,

I may be way off here, but I have a feeling that may be a limitation with Kontakt itself...

Or, do you have other libraries that sync up OK?

Well, this has to do with the fact that the strumming is synched to the Kontakt metronome, but it doesn't have to be. For example, in the Akkord guitar (which uses as similar type of arpeggiator to play sequences of sampled chords rhytmically), the strumming starts whenever a note is played, rather than synching with Kontakt's metronome.

Perhaps this would require too significant of an overhaul to the strumming engine in the Evolution guitar, but it would still be nice to see something like that in an update if possible.

[kbaccki]

Kontakt may not receive MIDI clock as would a host, sequencer, etc... It may only be able to sync to an external clock through VST. I don't know this for sure, as I've never tried, only speculating here. If it doesn't support MIDI sync one thing you could do is a find a cheapish VST host that does MIDI clock sync and host Kontakt on the remote computer within that host. For example, Console supports external MIDI clock sync: http://console.jp/en/

Also, make sure you tell Kontakt to sync to external clock, and make sure your master sequencer thingy is sending MIDI clock.

[AZeitung]

Kontakt may not receive MIDI clock as would a host, sequencer, etc... It may only be able to sync to an external clock through VST.

After a lot of research on the internet, I'm pretty sure that this is the case, which is why I think the only way to fix this would be through an update to the evolution electric guitar library that doesn't force it to synch to Kontakt's metronome. I'm sure the metronome is used to keep time, but there must be a way to get it start at an arbitrary point relative to a click--after all, the Akkord guitar does it--of course, I don't know how different those two engines are at a fundimental level.

[Gregjazz]

After a lot of research on the internet, I'm pretty sure that this is the case, which is why I think the only way to fix this would be through an update to the evolution electric guitar library that doesn't force it to synch to Kontakt's metronome. I'm sure the metronome is used to keep time, but there must be a way to get it start at an arbitrary point relative to a click--after all, the Akkord guitar does it--of course, I don't know how different those two engines are at a fundimental level.

In standalone Kontant, you would be able to adjust the BPM tempo to sync with what's in your DAW, but there's no way it can sense the offset of where the beats are. There are no functions in scripting to make that sort of communication between Kontakt in standalone mode and your DAW.

Can you load Kontakt as a plugin within your DAW, or is there are reason that you prefer to have it as standalone?

[kbaccki]

I don't see how having seperate metronomes/clocks solves your problem. You want one clock source and have everything sync to that, right?

In any event, I'm not following what you mean by this:

I'm sure the metronome is used to keep time, but there must be a way to get it start at an arbitrary point relative to a click

Do you mean, when you hit a note the sequenced pattern restarts at time zero (first seq step), whereas with Evolution the sequenced patterns are free running?

[AZeitung]

After a lot of research on the internet, I'm pretty sure that this is the case, which is why I think the only way to fix this would be through an update to the evolution electric guitar library that doesn't force it to synch to Kontakt's metronome. I'm sure the metronome is used to keep time, but there must be a way to get it start at an arbitrary point relative to a click--after all, the Akkord guitar does it--of course, I don't know how different those two engines are at a fundimental level.

In standalone Kontant, you would be able to adjust the BPM tempo to sync with what's in your DAW, but there's no way it can sense the offset of where the beats are. There are no functions in scripting to make that sort of communication between Kontakt in standalone mode and your DAW.

Can you load Kontakt as a plugin within your DAW, or is there are reason that you prefer to have it as standalone?

Mostly, I do it that way so that I have the resources to load all the instruments in Kontakt that I want to and still run various effects and plugins in pro tools. If I try running pro tools (LE) and kontakt on the same computer, it seems like regardless of the system I run it on, I constantly get timeouts.

The best computers I have for personal use are only dual core, but I have a friend who runs pro tools and Kontakt on a quad core macbook and he has the same problems with dropouts, even at very high latencies.

Combine that with the fact that this computer came with 32 bit vista, and I never upgraded to the 64 bit version--meaning I have limitations in terms of memory, too, and everything just works a whole lot better if I use two computers.

[AZeitung]

I don't see how having seperate metronomes/clocks solves your problem. You want one clock source and have everything sync to that, right?

Right, it doesn't solve the problem. I was just describing the problem. Unfortunately, with my setup, there's no way around having two separate metronomes.

In any event, I'm not following what you mean by this:

I'm sure the metronome is used to keep time, but there must be a way to get it start at an arbitrary point relative to a click

Do you mean, when you hit a note the sequenced pattern restarts at time zero (first seq step), whereas with Evolution the sequenced patterns are free running?

What I mean is that the strumming in Evolution is synched up with Kontakt's metronome. So when the metronome clicks, evolution's strumming engine strums (and also half way between clicks for 8th notes, etc). The Akkord guitar can strum at any point relative to a click. So if I press a key at an arbitrary time, the strums will not occur on metronome clicks or half way between clicks.

This is something you want even notice if you run Kontakt as a VST in your DAW.

BTW, I don't mean to sound too negative--I completely understand how something like this could be overlooked in development. And I've purchased every product in the strawberry line so far (all discounted), so the upgrade wasn't expensive at all. I'm just trying to describe the problem I'm having, in the hopes that some day there might be an update that could fix this.

[Gregjazz]

Isn't there a way you can set up your second computer as a memory server, connected so that Kontakt runs as a plugin in Protools, only it would be on the second computer?

[kbaccki]

I don't see how having seperate metronomes/clocks solves your problem. You want one clock source and have everything sync to that, right?

Right, it doesn't solve the problem. I was just describing the problem. Unfortunately, with my setup, there's no way around having two separate metronomes.

As I said above, you should be able to keep everything in synch using MIDI clock on both computers (master/slave). Try the Console host on the second computer, set it up for MIDI sync, and host Kontakt VST in that. I also found this thread for other VST hosts that may support MIDI sync: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=176327

The Akkord guitar can strum at any point relative to a click. So if I press a key at an arbitrary time, the strums will not occur on metronome clicks or half way between clicks.

Akkord must not be tempo-sync'd then... that could be either good or bad, depending on your perspective. Generally, for a mini-sequencer thingamabob like Akkord, I'd like it to be automagically synched to some master clock...

This is something you want even notice if you run Kontakt as a VST in your DAW.

Perhaps when hosted as VST Akkord is synched, but otherwise not synched due to limitations of Kontakt itself...

In any event, hosting Kontakt VST in a free/cheap host that supports MIDI sync on the second computer should solve your clock sync problem, I think...

[AZeitung]

Isn't there a way you can set up your second computer as a memory server, connected so that Kontakt runs as a plugin in Protools, only it would be on the second computer?

I don't know how that would be done, but I'll look into it tonight.

[AZeitung]

I don't see how having seperate metronomes/clocks solves your problem. You want one clock source and have everything sync to that, right?

Right, it doesn't solve the problem. I was just describing the problem. Unfortunately, with my setup, there's no way around having two separate metronomes.

As I said above, you should be able to keep everything in synch using MIDI clock on both computers (master/slave). Try the Console host on the second computer, set it up for MIDI sync, and host Kontakt VST in that. I also found this thread for other VST hosts that may support MIDI sync: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=176327

A solution I had considered was running Kontakt in a VST host, which I thought I might be able to synch to an external midi clock, but the stand alone version of Kontakt definitely has no capability for that. This might be a decent a enough workaround.

The Akkord guitar can strum at any point relative to a click. So if I press a key at an arbitrary time, the strums will not occur on metronome clicks or half way between clicks.

Akkord must not be tempo-sync'd then... that could be either good or bad, depending on your perspective. Generally, for a mini-sequencer thingamabob like Akkord, I'd like it to be automagically synched to some master clock...

The tempo of the Akkord guitar will match the tempo set in Kontakt. The start times, however, are not synched to quarter notes or eighthnotes, or 16th notes, etc, however. And I know how I would write something that uses the midi clock but doesn't synch the strums, but I don't know specifically how this strumming engine works (then again, I haven't used the Kontakt scripting language in a while, so I don't exactly remember what it's limitations are).

I don't really see the point of synching to those, if it's avoidable, since a quantized key press will play the strums exactly in rhythm, and if you don't quantize the key press, you obviously want it slightly out of synch anyway.

[Gregjazz]

I don't really see the point of synching to those, if it's avoidable, since a quantized key press will play the strums exactly in rhythm, and if you don't quantize the key press, you obviously want it slightly out of synch anyway.

In theory, yes. But the way the strumming engine in Evolution Electric Guitar works, it actually starts strums behind the beat (earlier) based on the strumming speed per strum. You don't notice it as much with faster strums, but it's especially apparent with slow strum speeds. The strums are generated across beats rather than starting exactly on a beat. If they were to start on the beat (which I originally tried actually), due to the varying speeds of strums, the beat wouldn't sound steady. That's incidentally why you need to anticipate the strumming keys a tiny bit before you want them to start, by the way.

I'm going to be adding entire manual up/downstroke strums (entire strums) in an update, so that should provide you with another option.

[AZeitung]

I don't really see the point of synching to those, if it's avoidable, since a quantized key press will play the strums exactly in rhythm, and if you don't quantize the key press, you obviously want it slightly out of synch anyway.

In theory, yes. But the way the strumming engine in Evolution Electric Guitar works, it actually starts strums behind the beat (earlier) based on the strumming speed per strum. You don't notice it as much with faster strums, but it's especially apparent with slow strum speeds. The strums are generated across beats rather than starting exactly on a beat. If they were to start on the beat (which I originally tried actually), due to the varying speeds of strums, the beat wouldn't sound steady. That's incidentally why you need to anticipate the strumming keys a tiny bit before you want them to start, by the way.

Ah, yes, I did notice this last night when I was playing around with the library, but I thought maybe it was my imagination because it was still before I figured out that it was synching to Kontakt's metronome, and everything with the tempo seemed a bit funny. I wasn't sure if slowing the strum speed was actually making the strums start earlier or what was going on really--but this does make sense.

I'm going to be adding entire manual up/downstroke strums (entire strums) in an update, so that should provide you with another option.

That would actually be nice, since that's a feature I'd like even if I get the strumming engine working the way I want it to.

edit: Whenever I use the Akkord guitar, this is actually the mode I use it in. I don't bother with their strumming engine, so I would love to see this feature.