Tune the Kick to the Song ?

[Lotuzia]

Kick has no pitch.
Not saying that tuning the kick cant make it bettet, but i dont think it needs to be in the root key.
I dont think a real drummer hit the kick drum differently when theres a different key to the song.

All sounds have pitch, but transient sounds like kicks are often less noticeable, and in many genres it's irrelevant as long as it sounds good... Although they change the pitch in electronic music because it sounds good to them, so it's all subjective. But there is a practical reason as well which is the drive for big kicks and bass sounds that don't clash AKA have your cake and eat it too

...I'm going to bed

With all due respect this is just wrong.

Sounds comes with odd and even harmonics.

The more odd content and less even components, and the sounds becomes inharmonic. Of course this is related to the amplitude (think gain) of the diofferent odd harmonics VS the fundamental. Most often you cant determine the pitch.

Then white noise has no defined pitch, because all frequencies are equally represented.

Most Cymbals are a good example of inharmonic instruments, though sometimes a pitch can be found in certain areas, like the cupbell.

This is not my Pov btw, just physics

(most) (old school) Drummers "tune" their drumsets, often by 4th with the toms. And by ear. But gey, who uses toms nowadays ?

The process of "tuning" the bass drum in electronic music (ie reinforcing the fundamental of a track) might be somewhat relied to the fact that a part of these musics dont contain chords changes, or change keys during a track. (all this imho) It can therefore make sense to put emphasis on the root note ( In case still some people should miss the key ...... )

Then after all its mainly a matter of taste. Even with live or accoustic recordings, many sound engeeners will, with more or less awareness, try to blend the bass and the kick using ......... simple Eqs

And finally its not correct -imho- that an acoustic drummer cant at all adapt, in a limited way, to the "overall" key of a track. Hitting the bass drum more or less hard, or using release fastness, will change (more or less depending on the tension on the drum head) the "tone".

Then some drums are "almost_fully" pitched ( Orchestral Tympanis for example )

My 0.0002

LtZ

[deastman]

Obviously depends on the kick drum sample too, for example 808 kicks with long decay definitely have a pitch to my ears and I can find the pitch by playing a key on top of it just by ear

A long 808 kick drum functions more as a bass and less as a kick. Or rather, it has the instantaneous punch of a kick, paired with a long sustaining bass note.

My favorite way to synthesize kick drums is to modulate a Plan B Model 15 Complex VCO with a fast envelope, so the vco frequency sweeps quickly from high to low. The actual fundamental frequency changes continuously throughout the sound. Therefore there is no fundamental frequency to tune. Sure, you could take a sample of that kick drum and play it at a higher or lower rate, but that doesn't change the fact that it has no fundamental to tune to the key of a song.

[VibraSound]

I think we can all agree that there are two categories of Drums sometimes classified as "pitched" or "unpitched"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percussion_instrument

[nickn]

Kicks definitely have pitch.

The only sounds that don't have a pitch are:

1.) Silence which has no pitch

2.) White noise which has all pitches

Kicks are neither silence nor white noise and you can certainly hear a kick's pitch. You can also see what that pitch is on a spectrum analyzer where its most prominent peak is.

[aciddose]

With all due respect this is just wrong.

Sounds comes with odd and even harmonics.

The more odd content and less even components, and the sounds becomes inharmonic. Of course this is related to the amplitude (think gain) of the diofferent odd harmonics VS the fundamental. Most often you cant determine the pitch.

...

actually that isn't what harmonic means, nor is it what inharmonic means.

a harmonic is a frequency component at a multiple or fraction of another component.

that means both even and odd values (and whole fractions) are all harmonic.

an inharmonic frequency is one which is either not possible to represent by a whole fraction, or one where the denominator of the fraction is rather large.

for example,
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ... are all "whole" harmonics and are highly "consonant"
1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5 are all "sub" harmonics
4/5, 7/8, 3/32 are all "fractional" harmonics but begin to be a bit "dissonant" with larger lowest common denominators.

ultimately unless two frequencies are both irrational you can always represent them as fractions, and the difference between them as a fraction, and they are therefore still harmonic, although "less" harmonic.

[Xenobt]

Kicks definitely have pitch.

The only sounds that don't have a pitch are:

1.) Silence which has no pitch

2.) White noise which has all pitches

Kicks are neither silence nor white noise and you can certainly hear a kick's pitch. You can also see what that pitch is on a spectrum analyzer where its most prominent peak is.

True, however, events at the waveform peak are usually much different than the body decay of the instrument in real drums.
While some kicks thwack at up to 3k during their attack, the sustained tone, even if that only means 800ms-1.5sec., still has a much lower fundamental that's tunable.

In the studio, I've seen session drummers retune their kits, or replace kick/snare drums to match the song key. It's a subtle art, but even short sustain sources like snares can benefit from tuning to (or in harmony with) the fundamental.

And I agree with earlier posts, the 808 IS more of a bass than a kick, and often is paired with a higher "pop/edge" kick to give it more definition and to have SOMETHING on small speakers.

If you run into a bass harmonic clash between them, you can either retune OR just roll off the low end of the pop/edge kick. It'll make things hit even harder and clearer without the subharmonic soup AND without retuning...
This also works in rock mixes, the kick goes thwack, the bass goes hum or vice versa.

But two things that thwack or two things that hum, or two that do both at once are gonna be trouble in your mix.

[VibraSound]

the sustained tone, even if that only means 800ms-1.5sec., still has a much lower fundamental that's tunable.

This is true for slow bpm like Hip Hop but you cannot have a 800 ms kick in a 140 bpm techno song.
429 ms is the maximum duration of the kick in a 140 bpm song.
What do you think is the minimum ms duration acceptable to tune a kick ?

[Perimeter Sound]

I don't know about 'tuning' the kick to match the bassline or track in general, but I sometimes shift it up or down a semi-tone or two. Mostly though, it's just to help something fit in the mix better, so it can find it's own place so to speak. And maybe that is 'tuning' it, I don't have perfect pitch though, and I don't use any meters to measure or check it, so I guess I don't really consider it 'tuning'. But whatever works, if it makes a track or beat sound better, then it's just another technique to use whether it has a name or not eh.

[Soulbrix]

nice tip

[cosmicdawn]

I see there are some that try to explain that a kick drum has no pitch. I don't know about your kick drums, but the ones I make has a pitch. We are not talking about the transient attack of the kick, but the decay part. In house music you generally use a kick drum with a short transient attack followed by a sinus tone that descends in volume and pitch, then it lands on a tone which is generally between f1 and g1 (49 hz). Anything higher or lower is either to boomy or light for me. It's this decay part that I tune by applying a quick pitch bend so that it lands on either the root note or at least to another note of the scale used.

[jupiter8]

Some kicks has a discernible pitch and some don't. Arguing that they all have it or don't have it is kinda 'tarded. Some do and some don't.

While it can be a nice experiment and might lead you down paths you wouldn't otherwise go,i think that doing anything by the number or just because you should is bad for creativity and in the end counter productive.

Or: just use your damn ears. If you like it,don't let anyone ever tell you you're wrong and vice versa.

[cosmicdawn]

True. Sometimes you use raw calculation combined with talent and dedication. That's what I do. We can discuss the talent, but the dedication and calculation part is something everyone can achieve If they want to:)

And if you make music to be played in clubs it is essential to Get the low end right. Sometimes the track can sound better with a tuned kick, sometimes it doesn't matter that much. Use your ears first, then the calculator.

[Xenobt]

the sustained tone, even if that only means 800ms-1.5sec., still has a much lower fundamental that's tunable.

This is true for slow bpm like Hip Hop but you cannot have a 800 ms kick in a 140 bpm techno song.
429 ms is the maximum duration of the kick in a 140 bpm song.
What do you think is the minimum ms duration acceptable to tune a kick ?

Hey VibraSound,
I was speaking more of real kicks with shells, rims and heads, and unless you SEVERELY muffle them, you're going to have a decay in the range I discussed that may overlap other instruments or itself when played faster.

Back in the day, when sampler/synth sound engines were less powerful, a new strike of a sample would often cut off the ring of the previous one, making the sustain a moot point, and keeping uptempo kicks out of their own way.

But now, with round-robin samples and virtually unlimited firepower for polyphony, you DO have to take the length of the sample into consideration.

And I'll also agree with Jupiter8 that some kicks have an easily perceived note, (synth based or 808,909) and lots of rock and metal have MUCH less after the fundamental, and that using your ear works best. And if it works, DON"T FIX IT!

[aciddose]

What do you think is the minimum ms duration acceptable to tune a kick ?

humans are supposed to require six cycles to identify the frequency of a signal.

if the kick operates at 50hz average (typical) that would require 120ms.

i think though that you only actually require six cycles after the first cycle or impulse in order for the brain to satisfy itself that the probability of failure in identifying the frequency is low enough. so you could tune an impulse, of course.

[jupiter8]

And I'll also agree with Jupiter8 that some kicks have an easily perceived note, (synth based or 808,909) and lots of rock and metal have MUCH less after the fundamental, and that using your ear works best. And if it works, DON"T FIX IT!

The 808 kick has a steady pitch but the 909 hasn't. It goes from a hi pitch to a low one and is never steady. Trying to tune that to the key of a song is like herding bees. Or cats. But bees seems harder, so bees it is.