hello.
I am beginner in music theory.I have a problem with scales.there are exist very much count of scales such as E-Minor,E-Major,E-pentatonic Major,E-Blues Major ,E-Melodic Minor,E-Harmonic Minor,E-Be pop and so on.each of which has C,C#,D,D#,E,F,F#,G,G#,A,A#,B,B# for based note of scale.
My question is:
How Can I(or musicians) learn all of these scales,remember them and play or improvise in the music?
Is musicians such as Joe Satriani and Jimi Hendrix remember and learned all of these scale?
Please help me I AM CONFUSED.
Problem With Scales in music theory
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- KVRian
- 1084 posts since 12 Sep, 2008 from Your basement
Give it some time...you'll be drinking from the firehose for a while and then over time you will have a series of insights which will allow you to understand the scales and their context.hosseinz wrote:hello.
I am beginner in music theory.I have a problem with scales.there are exist very much count of scales such as E-Minor,E-Major,E-pentatonic Major,E-Blues Major ,E-Melodic Minor,E-Harmonic Minor,E-Be pop and so on.each of which has C,C#,D,D#,E,F,F#,G,G#,A,A#,B,B# for based note of scale.
My question is:
How Can I(or musicians) learn all of these scales,remember them and play or improvise in the music?
Is musicians such as Joe Satriani and Jimi Hendrix remember and learned all of these scale?
Please help me I AM CONFUSED.
Joe Satriani, Jimi Hendrix, and all the other great musicians know their scales.
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- KVRAF
- 2118 posts since 1 Apr, 2004 from Athens, Greece
You have to start from remembering intervals, meaning the distance between any two notes. For example, C and E have an interval of a major third.
Every type of scale has a predefined set of intervals, so once you learn the pattern for the scale of C major, and remember your intervals, you automatically have learned all major scales.
Every type of scale has a predefined set of intervals, so once you learn the pattern for the scale of C major, and remember your intervals, you automatically have learned all major scales.
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- KVRAF
- 3726 posts since 30 Jan, 2005 from rochester, ny
most accomplished improvisers spend a ridiculous amount of time (hours a day, every day, for months/years/decades) practicing scales/modes of all ilk until they 'come naturally' during performance.
or you could get the sound of the scales in your head/hands/body so deeply that you'd end up playing them intuitively, by ear. my guess is that jimi hendrix was this kind of guitarist.
or you could get the sound of the scales in your head/hands/body so deeply that you'd end up playing them intuitively, by ear. my guess is that jimi hendrix was this kind of guitarist.
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- KVRAF
- 3726 posts since 30 Jan, 2005 from rochester, ny
my brother, the mathematician, LOVES integrating and differentiating! ;-) each to his own i guess ... :-)Bobbotov wrote:It's easier than calculus:-) And more fun too!
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- KVRist
- 54 posts since 13 Aug, 2009
The first thing that you need to do is learn your major scales in every key. Don't worry about the minors, or pentatonics, or the modes just yet. There are twelve major scales, so it will likely take you quite a bit of time to learn them all well, but it's a necessary first step. You should practice them until they're consistently smooth, and to the point where you're not "thinking" about what you're doing. Learn to play your scales in every octave that your instrument provides, and practice them all equally, so that you don't develop any keys that are weaker than any other.
As you're learning your major scales, be conscious of the note names of the scale tones you're playing, as well as their scale degree numbers. To understand what is meant by a scale degree number, consider the C major scale, which is C D E F G A B C. Assign the first note of the scale the number 1, the second note of the scale the number 2, the third note the number 3, and so on. For the C scale, that would be: 1=C, 2=D, 3=E, 4=F, 5=G, 6=A, and 7=B. For an F major scale, which is F G A B♭ C D E F, the scale degree numbers are 1=F, 2=G, 3=A, 4=B♭, 5=C, 6=D, and 7=E. Ideally, you'd like to get to the point where you know instantly that the fifth note of a C major scale is a G, the fourth note of an F major scale is a B♭, etc.
If you can get that far, learning scales thereafter will be much easier. For example, understanding that the structure of a major scale is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1, it's easy to relate that to a major pentatonic scale, which is 1 2 3 5 6 1. So, a C major pentatonic scale is C D E G A C, and in the key of F, it's F G A C D F. Once you've mentally linked the note names and degree numbers of all your major scales, it's simply a matter of understanding the formula for generating the scales you wish to play.
Here are the formulas for all of the scale types you mentioned:
Major: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1
Natural Minor: 1 2 ♭3 4 5 ♭6 ♭7 1
Major Pentatonic: 1 2 3 5 6 1
Blues: 1 ♭3 4 ♯4 5 ♭7 1
Melodic Minor (ascending): 1 2 ♭3 4 5 6 7 1
Melodic Minor (descending): 1 ♭7 ♭6 5 4 ♭3 2 1
Bebop Dominant: 1 2 3 4 5 6 ♭7 7 1
Where a scale degree number is indicated as sharp or flat, just raise or lower that note by one half-step. For example, in the key of C, the third note of the major scale is E, so a ♭3 would be an E♭. The fourth note is an F, so the ♯4 would be an F♯. Let's say that you want to figure out an E Blues scale: start with the E major scale, which is 1=E, 2=F♯, 3=G♯, 4=A, 5=B, 6=C♯, 7=D♯, E. Since the formula for a Blues scale is 1 ♭3 4 ♯4 5 ♭7 1, an E Blues scale is 1=E, ♭3=G, 4=A, ♯4=A♯, 5=B, ♭7=D, E, or simply E G A A♯ B D E.
Hopefully that made sense to you. Not everyone uses this method of concentrating on scale degree numbers, but keeping everything relative makes things easier in the long run. Instead of needing to learn new scales in all twelve keys, you'll eventually be able to just learn one formula, and have it translate instantly into any key you desire.
As you're learning your major scales, be conscious of the note names of the scale tones you're playing, as well as their scale degree numbers. To understand what is meant by a scale degree number, consider the C major scale, which is C D E F G A B C. Assign the first note of the scale the number 1, the second note of the scale the number 2, the third note the number 3, and so on. For the C scale, that would be: 1=C, 2=D, 3=E, 4=F, 5=G, 6=A, and 7=B. For an F major scale, which is F G A B♭ C D E F, the scale degree numbers are 1=F, 2=G, 3=A, 4=B♭, 5=C, 6=D, and 7=E. Ideally, you'd like to get to the point where you know instantly that the fifth note of a C major scale is a G, the fourth note of an F major scale is a B♭, etc.
If you can get that far, learning scales thereafter will be much easier. For example, understanding that the structure of a major scale is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1, it's easy to relate that to a major pentatonic scale, which is 1 2 3 5 6 1. So, a C major pentatonic scale is C D E G A C, and in the key of F, it's F G A C D F. Once you've mentally linked the note names and degree numbers of all your major scales, it's simply a matter of understanding the formula for generating the scales you wish to play.
Here are the formulas for all of the scale types you mentioned:
Major: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1
Natural Minor: 1 2 ♭3 4 5 ♭6 ♭7 1
Major Pentatonic: 1 2 3 5 6 1
Blues: 1 ♭3 4 ♯4 5 ♭7 1
Melodic Minor (ascending): 1 2 ♭3 4 5 6 7 1
Melodic Minor (descending): 1 ♭7 ♭6 5 4 ♭3 2 1
Bebop Dominant: 1 2 3 4 5 6 ♭7 7 1
Where a scale degree number is indicated as sharp or flat, just raise or lower that note by one half-step. For example, in the key of C, the third note of the major scale is E, so a ♭3 would be an E♭. The fourth note is an F, so the ♯4 would be an F♯. Let's say that you want to figure out an E Blues scale: start with the E major scale, which is 1=E, 2=F♯, 3=G♯, 4=A, 5=B, 6=C♯, 7=D♯, E. Since the formula for a Blues scale is 1 ♭3 4 ♯4 5 ♭7 1, an E Blues scale is 1=E, ♭3=G, 4=A, ♯4=A♯, 5=B, ♭7=D, E, or simply E G A A♯ B D E.
Hopefully that made sense to you. Not everyone uses this method of concentrating on scale degree numbers, but keeping everything relative makes things easier in the long run. Instead of needing to learn new scales in all twelve keys, you'll eventually be able to just learn one formula, and have it translate instantly into any key you desire.
You're bad... with my help, you could be the worst.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
WHY? Why is that better than sticking to a key until you have internalized interval relastionships? I disagree.unpeople wrote:The first thing that you need to do is learn your major scales in every key.
Master improvisers in eg., India's Hindustani or Karnatak music have 'their tonic'. Period. A sitar tends to have D as a tonic. There is no 'key of Eb' for that axe.
Your statement is one of these 'received' things culturally. 'Conventional wisdom has it'... It may very well be that a European, or Euro-centric individual ought to do that ultimately.
I personally think it's not wise for every beginner to have 12 keys in front of her 'in order to begin'.
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- KVRist
- 54 posts since 13 Aug, 2009
hosseinz started this thread by asking how someone would go about learning lots of different kinds of scales in all of the keys. Sticking to one key doesn't answer the question.jancivil wrote:WHY? Why is that better than sticking to a key until you have internalized interval relastionships? I disagree.unpeople wrote:The first thing that you need to do is learn your major scales in every key.
That's all well and good, but hosseinz was asking about Blues and Bebop scales, and there are very few jazz sitar players, so I doubt that my advice will be scuttled by the out-of-key drone of sympathetic strings. Many instruments have certain keys where the scale fingerings are easiest — like C major on a piano, or B♭ on a trumpet — but I consider it a bad habit to favor playing in one key over another. By definition, that means that your other keys are weaker, and that's no good, particularly if you're playing jazz.jancivil wrote:Master improvisers in eg., India's Hindustani or Karnatak music have 'their tonic'. Period. A sitar tends to have D as a tonic. There is no 'key of Eb' for that axe.
You're bad... with my help, you could be the worst.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Still, this is a beginner - it says so in VERY LARGE TYPE. I don't get any sense that the OP has any clue what these scales mean. Or has any particular affinity for "bebop" at this point. The question I see is "how to learn to do everything I've ever heard of all at once."unpeople wrote:hosseinz started this thread by asking how someone would go about learning lots of different kinds of scales in all of the keys. Sticking to one key doesn't answer the question.jancivil wrote:WHY? Why is that better than sticking to a key until you have internalized interval relastionships? I disagree.unpeople wrote:The first thing that you need to do is learn your major scales in every key.
That's all well and good, but hosseinz was asking about Blues and Bebop scales, and there are very few jazz sitar players, so I doubt that my advice will be scuttled by the out-of-key drone of sympathetic strings. Many instruments have certain keys where the scale fingerings are easiest — like C major on a piano, or B♭ on a trumpet — but I consider it a bad habit to favor playing in one key over another. By definition, that means that your other keys are weaker, and that's no good, particularly if you're playing jazz.jancivil wrote:Master improvisers in eg., India's Hindustani or Karnatak music have 'their tonic'. Period. A sitar tends to have D as a tonic. There is no 'key of Eb' for that axe.
It's a whole lot of useless information, umpteen exotic scale types in every key. It's trying to sprint as if a tiptop athelete before learning to crawl.
My WHY really is, "why is trying to run before crawling utterly de riqeur". Learn how to get something musical out of a couple keys, one key, LOOK AT INTERVALS.
And what "jazz", in the Original Post?
Hendrix? Satch? Hendrix never ran scales. Hendrix was a blues player, who at times went into MODAL playing, Hindustani influence, and he LOVED HIM SOME E. So don't tell me what I read is what you read. & AFAIK Hendrix transposed by position on the fretboard. I don't see or hear that he had to know a single thing according to your 'received as gospel' approach. I've seen him try to improvise in a pseudo-classical style, and he didn't appear to know his way around keys/formulaic changes so well. By ear, copping off records. Do you think he came up with Little Wing by roman numerals? And then applied scale theory? Shit.When someone takes "scales" "in every key" as a de rigeur basis for study, so so so often s/he runs scales as a way around really hearing it. It's received 'wisdom' that IME is rather ill-advised. Learn music with your ear. Which in my vast experience is better done via my approach than what appears to be yours.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
WRONG.unpeople wrote:The first thing that you need to do is learn your major scales in every key. Don't worry about the minors, or pentatonics, or the modes just yet.
Start with five notes and get something musical happening, in terms of shapes, get a melodic sense before you tackle 12 x 7 notes.
If you want to sound like a heavy rock soloist, they are playing MODALLY and PENTATONICALLY. The ones you REMEMBER are playing MELODICALLY.
Sure there are mediocre jazzers who lean on some scales. It tells on you pretty quick when one has no grasp of a melody qua melody. Which scales will not accomplish for you.
Cop those licks off a record out of nowhere with no knowledge is better than acquiring a bunch of abstract information with no knowledge.
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- KVRAF
- 7837 posts since 20 Jan, 2008
Jazz is not about scaling but you do need to know your scales to be great playing jazz. All the jazz legends shy of Wes Montgomery were schooled in scales, melodic diction and harmony.
Dell Vostro i9 64GB Ram Windows 11 Pro, Cubase, Bitwig, Mixcraft Guitar Pod Go, Linntrument Nektar P1, Novation Launchpad
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- KVRer
- 9 posts since 14 Jan, 2007
If the OP wants to learn how to memorize scales i think the best way to learn is starting with major scales and relating it back to the major scale this is how we learn them in my jazz theory class.
So if you take a major scale and lower the 3rd degree you have Jazz minor/ascending melodic minor scale, If you lower the 3rd and 6th degree you have a harmonic minor scale etc. After a while it'll just become second nature and you'll just remember them all.
So if you take a major scale and lower the 3rd degree you have Jazz minor/ascending melodic minor scale, If you lower the 3rd and 6th degree you have a harmonic minor scale etc. After a while it'll just become second nature and you'll just remember them all.
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- KVRAF
- 2217 posts since 15 Jul, 2003
I have often wondered what if someone was originally schooled to bebop scales and later found out there were all those other scales
I think the point of scale practice is
1) learning what different scale sounds like, so if you start on some other note you know what notes are in that key/scale
2) training the fingers/brain to reach the notes in that scale -- much easier on a fretboard as you learn certain shapes and can apply them up and down the fretboard
3) I'm not sure how interval training comes out of scales, but if one has it all imprinted as second nature one should be able to find the note one wants to play and not be surprised like someone like me when I reach to play an x and get a y.
when it comes to some classical instruments professional players do a few hours of scales a day just to keep the facility, The saying goes don't practice for a day the player can tell. Don't practice for 2 days, their spouse can tell. Don't practice for 3 days, the audience can tell.
That's the price they pay for that level of facility.
I think the point of scale practice is
1) learning what different scale sounds like, so if you start on some other note you know what notes are in that key/scale
2) training the fingers/brain to reach the notes in that scale -- much easier on a fretboard as you learn certain shapes and can apply them up and down the fretboard
3) I'm not sure how interval training comes out of scales, but if one has it all imprinted as second nature one should be able to find the note one wants to play and not be surprised like someone like me when I reach to play an x and get a y.
when it comes to some classical instruments professional players do a few hours of scales a day just to keep the facility, The saying goes don't practice for a day the player can tell. Don't practice for 2 days, their spouse can tell. Don't practice for 3 days, the audience can tell.
That's the price they pay for that level of facility.
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- KVRAF
- 7837 posts since 20 Jan, 2008
Dammit I had this long dissertaion I read it too many times got off track and started again.
when you play scales you are supposed to play them in patterns. that's how intervals develop.
When you are playing jazz you concentrate on the chord function not the scale persay. you connect the dots of the harmonic structure via chord tones passing tones and neighboring tones.
find a trad jazz (not bebop) to begin with. Like "All of Me" or "I got rhythum"
Read the melody compare the melody with the chord.
All of me
CMa7 - E7-A7-Dm7-E7-Am7-Dm7-D7-G7 (roughly)
First chord CMa7 melody for the first chord starts C-G-E
More CMa7 melody C-D-C
E7 Melody B-G#-E
Yes it has some "Connect the dots" sub/passing/nieghboring tones and some non-chord scale tones along the way.
...more to come.. and yes the bebop scale is make believe. Even though Parker coined the 12tone system it's really not a twelve tone or bebop system at all.
when you play scales you are supposed to play them in patterns. that's how intervals develop.
When you are playing jazz you concentrate on the chord function not the scale persay. you connect the dots of the harmonic structure via chord tones passing tones and neighboring tones.
find a trad jazz (not bebop) to begin with. Like "All of Me" or "I got rhythum"
Read the melody compare the melody with the chord.
All of me
CMa7 - E7-A7-Dm7-E7-Am7-Dm7-D7-G7 (roughly)
First chord CMa7 melody for the first chord starts C-G-E
More CMa7 melody C-D-C
E7 Melody B-G#-E
Yes it has some "Connect the dots" sub/passing/nieghboring tones and some non-chord scale tones along the way.
...more to come.. and yes the bebop scale is make believe. Even though Parker coined the 12tone system it's really not a twelve tone or bebop system at all.