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xxx4rcade · Post by **xxx4rcade** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:44 am

Ionian: The major scale you outlined
Dorian: The same notes, but starting on the second degree
Phrygian: You guessed it, the same notes but starting on the third degree

So a 1, 4, 5 chord progression in Ionian would be:
1st Degree,
4th Degree,
5th Degree.

And a 1, 4, 5 chord progression in Dorian would be:
2nd Degree,
5th Degree,
6th Degree.

And a 1, 4, 5 chord progression in Phrygian would be:
3rd Degree,
6th Degree,
7th Degree.

Correct or incorrect?

I'm making flash cards of these as we speak!

xxx4rcade · Post by **xxx4rcade** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:48 am

Ionian: The major scale you outlined
Dorian: The same notes, but starting on the second degree
Phrygian: You guessed it, the same notes but starting on the third degree

So Lydian, Mixolydian, Aolian, and the Locrian.

Sorry if this confuses other people that are reading this! But Ionian is Lydian, Dorian is Mixolydian and Phrygian is Aolian. Correct?

someone called simon · Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:02 am

I think people are interpretting this question in different ways.

if you take, say a 'C' scale, all the white notes on a piano, but start on a different note, you will get the different modes. example, if you start on D (or the 'second degree'), using all the white notes, its called a D dorian scale, and its a minor scale. Also minor are the ones starting on E, and on A. So is the one starting on B but thats a weird one.

thats one interpretation of your question.

but if you are just looking at a minor scale, there are also 3 different ways to play it, that have different effects.

lets pick the white notes again, starting on A. thats one way of playing an Am scale, and probably the one you are most likely to use I'd say for trance.

The second way would be to play a G# instead of a G natural, the third way would be to play the G# as before, but also an F# rather than F natural. I forget what the names of these 3 minor scale variants are, but someone posted it.

Sometimes when playing scales on a piano you would go up the scale using the 2nd or 3rd variation I mentioned, but down using the 1st variation, If you play it you can hear it makes some kind of sonic sense like this.

In a nutshell, i think your question may be interepreted 2 ways, and you have a mix of answers going on here...

hibidy · Post by **hibidy** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:26 am

xxx4rcade wrote:
Ionian: The major scale you outlined
Dorian: The same notes, but starting on the second degree
Phrygian: You guessed it, the same notes but starting on the third degree
So a 1, 4, 5 chord progression in Ionian would be:
1st Degree,
4th Degree,
5th Degree.

And a 1, 4, 5 chord progression in Dorian would be:
2nd Degree,
5th Degree,
6th Degree.

And a 1, 4, 5 chord progression in Phrygian would be:
3rd Degree,
6th Degree,
7th Degree.

Correct or incorrect? I'm making flash cards of these as we speak!

It's a bit more complex than that.

Though there is a certain logic to what you saying.

I hate to be one of those ones to say "go read this/or that" but I really would recommend a study of the "circle of fifths" and "modes" (particularly the modern like in this example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode )

Not saying I can't help, but I'm lost as what direction to go.

hibidy · Post by **hibidy** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:27 am

And I forgot, this may be of some use to you

http://www.musictheory.net/lessons

xxx4rcade · Post by **xxx4rcade** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:52 am

hibidy wrote:And I forgot, this may be of some use to you

http://www.musictheory.net/lessons

WOW. +1,000,000. Shit. Thank you.

hibidy · Post by **hibidy** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:35 pm

xxx4rcade · Post by **xxx4rcade** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:41 pm

So if "Natural Minor" is Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone, then:

To convert any natural minor scale into harmonic minor, raise the seventh note by a half step.

To convert a natural minor scale into melodic minor, raise both the sixth and seventh notes by a half step.

So if you combined those facts from Music Theory [dot] Net with what I read on the Wikipedia page on degrees then:

The 7th note is the 7th Degree. The "Leading Tone"
The 6th note is the 6th Degree. The "Submediant"

Correct?

But if the chords in the "major scale" that sound good together are:

1st Degree: Major. The Tonic.
2nd Degree: Minor. The Supertonic.
3rd Degree: Minor. The Mediant.
4th Degree: Major. The Subdominant.
5th Degree: Major. The Dominant.
6th Degree: Minor. The Submediant.
7th Degree: Diminished. The Leading Tone.

Then what are the chords that sound good in "Harmonic Minor", "Melodic Minor", and "Natural Minor"?

xxx4rcade · Post by **xxx4rcade** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:43 pm

Edit: I keep referring to Wikipedia and Music Theory [dot] Net before asking questions. But I ask what I cannot find.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:02 pm

THe information is right in front of you.

Don't try to walk until you can crawl. Don't be looking at a bunch of "modes" and I IV V at the same time. It's confusing you.

There are 7 seven-note modes that can be derived from a given 'key'. Each has unique intervallic relationships and its own name. Ionian ≠ Lydian. All white keys, C to C = Ionian, F to F = Lydian. That can all be gleaned from a single wiki article.

RE: Minor vs the other minor - when you see 'harmonic' modifying the word 'minor', dig it: there's an "harmonic" reason for it. That is to say, that thing came into being because of some harmony. In A minor (beginning with all white keys to keep it very_simple), that harmony is, in this key, an E major or similar functioning harmony or chord. ("V". "i" being the chord 'A minor'.) That harmony includes a note which is not found in A 'natural' minor: G sharp. So if you have that harmony or chord, it might be that the note which is naturally found in a 'natural' minor, G natural, clashes if it happens at the same time. (Tnis type of phenomena is too 'interesting' for tarnce, so you'll avoid it.)

So your set of pitches is now: A B C D E F G#.

That's about all there is to harmonic minor as a concept. The chances are not high that you'll ever require the subtleties of melodic minor in tarnce, so I'm not going to teach you it for free.

There is a little interval thingy (augmented second; 'second' is one letter name to the next using the alphabet) in harmonic minor (given here based on A), that F G# bit. Play around with that scale and you might find some pseudo-exotic flavors you can pass off in that genre like you done something. Who knows.

someone called simon · Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:34 am

xxx4rcade wrote:
Then what are the chords that sound good in "Harmonic Minor", "Melodic Minor", and "Natural Minor"?

The notes effected there are the 6th and the 7th,

The 6th note of the scale = the 3rd of the 4th chord! (eg, in Am the 6th note is F, the 4th chord is D, and F is the third of D). So if that 6th note is natural, it will make the 4th chord a minor chord, Dm. if the 6th note is sharp, the 4th chord will be major, D mjor.
Its much easier for me to do this with actual examples. so in Am, play a D major chord and do your Am scale variations. Try again with a D minor chord. You'll see the 6th note of the scale will coincide, or not coincide, with one of the notes of your D chord. So that's how basically how the different scales can influence chords.

The same with the 7th note of the scale, in relation to the 5th chord. In our example, the G or G# note, and the Eminor or Emajor chord.

There are other chords affected too, like (obviously) the 6th and 7th chords, F and G in our example. these chords are both allowable in Am, but F# and G# really aren't. Thats because the standard form of those chords feature notes that don't live in Am scale, particularly in the 5th of each chord. F# has a C#, which clashes with the C natural, and G# has a D#, which isnt really pretty either. The way to fix that is to make them some form of diminshed chord, or to just an inversion of a different chord.
So if you have a bassline that goes, for example E F# G# A, you could put a D major chord over the F# bass note, and an E chord over the G# bass note. Those chords contain the altered notes of the scale you are using, so it will sound nice and harmonious....

I hope this is of some help.

ttw · Post by **ttw** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:20 am

I can give you a "classically-oriented" explanation.

In classical (Common Practice Period or CPP, about 1600-1900, and later in some cases) music, there are two modes for each keynote. These are the major and minor modes. The major mode is simple, it has seven notes spaced as follows (S=step or tone, H=half step or half tone): S,S,H,S,S,S,H or from C, the notes, D,E,F,G,A,B,C. These are called (for historical reasons), "diatonic" tones; other tones are called "chromatic" and require "accidentals" to show their difference from the "natural" scale. The triads based on the 1st, 4th, and 5th (scale) step are major; those on the 2nd, 3rd, and 6th step are minor; the triad on the 7th step is diminished. The "dominant 7th" is a 7th chord based on the 5th degree; it's the only 7th of that exact shape of all the 7ths. The combination of 7-8 motion by half-tone and 4-3 by half-tone has been popular for 600 or more years. The most important melodic movement (at least in the CPP) is the movement of 7-8 by half step.

The minor mode consists of 5 natural notes and 2 "mutable" notes. The notes of the natural minor are just those of a scale using A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A spaced S,H,S,S,H,S,S,S. This is equivalent to the Rennaisance "Aeolian" mode. The 6th and 7th notes of the minor scale are mutable, meaning that they may change but still be called "diatonic" (one does not leave the mode or key just because a note is changed.) Classical theory really just has a minor mode, not 3 minor scales.

The usage of the mutable notes (in CPP theory) is what gives the minor mode its character (at least according to Captain Obvious.) Because of the strength of the 7-8 half-tone movement, cadences in the CPP often raised the 7th note. Thus in the key of a-minor, a cadence could have an E7-am chord pgogression. Melodically, such mutation could be cause a problem because the natural 6th step to the raised 7th step is an augmented second and somewhat difficult to sing in tune. So, for melodies using the raised 7th, the 6th could be raised to make the intervals easier to sing. Such raising is not required; steps 4,5,6,raised 7 do outline part of a dominant 9th chord.

In descending, the 8-7 movement does not occur at a cadence and so the 7th step need not be raised. Thus the terminology "ascending" and "descending" forms of the melodic minor. Actually, both forms (and that with only a raised 7th) occur in much CPP music, often in the same piece.

A general rule (somewhat correlating with classical practice) would be:

Tonic harmony with ascending melody uses raises 6th and 7th.
Tonic harmony with descending melody uses natural 6th and 7th.
Sub-dominant harmony uses natural 6th and 7th.
Dominant harmony uses raised 6th and 7th.
The raised 6th is a passing tone between the 5th and raised 7th steps; the natural 6th is the upper neighbor of the 5th step. (The 7th step rarely gets a lower neighbor in either major or minor.)

That's a rough introduction to the "classical" POV.

The three "different" minor scales