KVR Audio

monsterbeetle · Post by **monsterbeetle** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:36 pm

Hi,

I've read stuff about the AxeFX and how it is supposed to be technically superior to anything out there in the way it models all the non linear things that happen inside an amp.

In an interview, the designer of the AxeFX told that he was particularly proud of his power section model, with the sagging and the frequency range narrowing that happens when hitting powerchords on a saggy power transformer, that then gradually releases and brings back the higher harmonics of the tone.

He also argues on the fact that other amp sims try to be light on the resources and hence use simplified math that does not fully model all the nuances. He also says that he can afford this extra details in the computation thanks to the analog devices DSP embedded in the AxeFx.

I think what is described above is exactly what I'm missing in ampsims, the thump and then the burst of harmonics that follows a good palm mute or strong rock strumming on a overdriven JCM 800.

So my question to IK is :

Can we hope for anything close to what AxeFx does for high gain amps in VST format soon (like in late 2010 or early 2011), or is this kind of DSP processing waaaaay too heavy to be accomplished on a desktop CPU ? I mean, could you for instance release a AT3 version with upgraded algos that would consume a lot more CPU than today but would actually be in the AxeFX league for high gain stuff ?

I'm sure the brains at IK could figure out the math behind this without problem, so I'm assuming this is just a problem of computational resources.

I'm asking this because I'd like to settle on a technology for good and dive deeper into preset crafting, and stop scratching the surface. I already own podfarm and all models of the amplitube collection, I'm satisfied with cleans and crunch sounds, but the high gain stuff still falls kind of short wrt real amps of the AxeFx.

Cheers

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:51 pm

Funny, I picked up a piece of gear from someone on Craig's List and I saw he had an AxeFX. I asked him how he liked it and all he did was complain and proceed to show me something he recorded where he used the preamp stage from the AxeFX but used power amp from Amplitube and ended up using impulses for cabinets.

The recording he was so proud of... it sounded OK. Worth the extra effort? Not in my opinion.

Last night, I tried a little trick I used to do when I was all hardware for amp modelers with AmpliTube 3 and it sounded glorious. I should post it. Use set up #2 and your favorite high gain set up. I think I started with the preset Edwood or something like that. On the second amp chain, bypass the amp and cab models and just use a fuzzbox. Tweak to taste. Pan each side 9:00 and 3:00. I've never heard a more thick crazy lush high gain sound out of anything.

Waker · Post by **Waker** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:47 am

I might be compleatly tone deaf, but the clips I've heard of the Axe-fx has been... Slightly underwhelming. It was a little bit better than A2, but not on the A Fender or A3 level. The only really good thing I've heard from the axe-fx, was some Vox with a ton of reverb and delay doing U2.

Axe-fx as a VST has been discused in the past. And if it happens, then they are facing a big challenge. I remember something about a unique A/D interface (read dongle), and a very high price.They have to top A3 for sound AND Guitar rig for effects. And be able to compete for price.

BTW, heavy with real amps doubletracked still sounds better than anything, including AXE-FX.

IK could compleatly kill all the competition by releasing three expansion sets for A3: Boutique (based on matchless, dumble and other exotic amps and effects), FX (A Eventide quality harmonizer/pitchshifter, Über delays and other fun stuff) and Hard core (Metal revisited, but better sound. Maybe Rivera Knucklehead, VHT Sig X, Diezel Einstein and a good Marshall).

bishop666 · Post by **bishop666** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:02 pm

Axe Fx is still superior.

But will you notice that in a mix? I highly doubt that.

If they release a vst version, it'll be simply to late. The other amp sims are too good to be dropped. They are nearly there and their devs will close the gap soon.

monsterbeetle · Post by **monsterbeetle** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Guys,

I'm talking high gain amps here.

I really dig AT3 or Fender for anything from clean to crunch, no need to argue about it.

But honestly, the AT metal amps are nowhere near what the Axe-Fx can achieve. As I said, in the chuggin department you're really far from that chug/mute/chug/let-it-ring-here-come-the-harmonics-bursting-in-your-face sound I'm hearing on AxeFx material.

I don't know what keeps IK from making the metal amps sound like that. No fizz but sizzle, good sense of a lot air being pushed.

Also, what is really missing in AT right now is a gate stomp that could be placed anywhere in the signal chain. That's what you need to set up a proper metal rig. And a multiband compression stomp.

And by the way, I don't need 80 amps, 3242 cabs, 2345932 mics with 80000 parameters to tweak, just a handful of good ones would be more than enough.

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:17 pm

Axe-FX were rumoured to be working on a VST version a year or so ago. Dunno if they still are.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:24 pm

monsterbeetle wrote: But honestly, the AT metal amps are nowhere near what the Axe-Fx can achieve.

Audio files to compare or STFU. Sorry, I've heard this dozens of times and yet never once did a single file of something done in AxeFX impress me in the slightest.

metalifuxx · Post by **metalifuxx** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:38 pm

I guess if you like the Meshuggah live sound, which they purportedly use AxeFX direct into the board live. If I was going that route for something for live use, I would much rather get a POD floor unit with the metal pack, or a good tube preamp with cab sim, and then run pedals before it. Seriously though, its' all about your playing and creating an illusion of good tone. My friend has used a Behringer V-Amp and/or Hughes and Kettner Tubeman for heavier stuff many times, and the audience thought he was using a real amp and got complemented for his awesome amp tone.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:00 pm

metalifuxx wrote:I guess if you like the Meshuggah live sound, which they purportedly use AxeFX direct into the board live. If I was going that route for something for live use, I would much rather get a POD floor unit with the metal pack, or a good tube preamp with cab sim, and then run pedals before it. Seriously though, its' all about your playing and creating an illusion of good tone. My friend has used a Behringer V-Amp and/or Hughes and Kettner Tubeman for heavier stuff many times, and the audience thought he was using a real amp and got complemented for his awesome amp tone.

Yeah, many moons ago I played with a bass player who used to dominate the stage with is SVX rig. It became such a problem that at one point I used to turn his amp volume down when he wasn't looking and told the sound guy to put a good about of his DI in the monitors. Finally at one point he noticed his amp had been down the whole show and I confessed.

The next time we played he had an SGX2000 bass version. I think soon after that I started going sans amp myself with an SGX2000 and they weren't that great, but very convenient for live shows. I moved to a Digitech 2120 and from there a Vox Tonelab SE and from there to Amplitube 2. At this point I've been away from real amps for so long that I don't even care if what I have sounds like one or not. I just care that it sounds good, and it does. I use a lot of high gain sounds so I'm always in the AT3 high gain amps (formally metal). I'd be very surprised if AxeFX far surpassed AT3 or Metal Amp room for such sounds, if at all.

I recently did this with synths too. My findings were that no matter how expensive hardware VA was, software VA was just as good. The main difference was UI and polyphony. My guess is that it's the same with guitar amps modelers.

bishop666 · Post by **bishop666** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:17 pm

What about those clips. Can you get close to it with other sims.

http://www.fractalaudio.com/forum/viewt ... lit=wanted

Please post the preset then. If you can do that i would really be impressed. Good luck.

futurefields · Post by **futurefields** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:39 pm

IK is not going to come in here and objectively review their sim against another, especially Axe-FX which is a great deal more expensive. That's not how these companies operate.

futurefields · Post by **futurefields** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:45 pm

monsterbeetle wrote: I'm asking this because I'd like to settle on a technology for good and dive deeper into preset crafting, and stop scratching the surface. I already own podfarm and all models of the amplitube collection, I'm satisfied with cleans and crunch sounds, but the high gain stuff still falls kind of short wrt real amps of the AxeFx.

Cheers

Settling on anything now will likely be obselete in a couple years. Amp modeling is still far from mature technology, in fact it is still in its infancy with respect to getting real virtually modeled circuits to run in realtime on current cpus. So there will continue to be major improvements I would say over atleast the next 5 years. There is still no such thing as a fully circuit modeled amp sim that we could run with no latency.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:26 pm

bishop666 wrote:What about those clips. Can you get close to it with other sims.

http://www.fractalaudio.com/forum/viewt ... lit=wanted

Please post the preset then. If you can do that i would really be impressed. Good luck.

I don't need luck, but thanks.

Peter - IK Multimedia · Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:31 pm

futurefields wrote:IK is not going to come in here and objectively review their sim against another, especially Axe-FX which is a great deal more expensive. That's not how these companies operate.

We respect the competition and the great work that has been done of course. We do, however, believe we are AT LEAST on the same level with all the competition with high gain (and everything else). All I can really answer, is the one question:

Can we hope for anything close to what AxeFx does for high gain amps in VST format soon

Yes, we call it AmpliTube 3 and it is already out.

monsterbeetle · Post by **monsterbeetle** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:39 pm

zerocrossing, quit driking coffee after 4pm it makes you nervous as it seems.

I've spent quite some time listening to various samples found all over the net, so it's not my problem if you don't know what I'm talking about. I wouldn't have stated the problem lik this otherwise.

Yet, as far as sound goes, some songs, not by me, but by Misha Mansoor aka Bulb:

this one is without axe FX (some kind of pod farm or revalver or AT metal I Guess)

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6338548

Same song with AxeFx :

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7044899

both songs played and mixed by the same person i the same DAW (who is really good at it by the way)

Isn't the difference obvious to you ?

Question to IKMM : AT3 vs AxeFX