can you put a name for this one

[Km7]

What I meant was, quartal or tertian or cluster are merely descriptions of the type of voicing used. But a voicing is just a matter of orchestration, it does not accurately describe the harmony. A chord made of C-F-B is a C Ionian chord, it emphasizes that scale and no other scale.

...

Voicing isn't just a matter of orchestration, but of harmony and composition (not to mention that some think that composition and orchestration are, if not inseparable, at least strongly connected). Thinking that a chord voiced in thirds and voiced as a cluster is the same thing is an over-simplificated purely theoretical view that doesn't take into consideration many things, among which is the human hearing, so I wouldn't encourage it. A cluster is a totally different musical and sonic experience compared to voicing it in thirds. For psychoacoustical reasons, clusters are heard as whole dissonant masses of sound, so discerning the separate tones and the root is harder than in conventional chords. Voicing a cluster in thirds simply breaks it down. Hence Hindemith's critique on chordal invertibility.

[sammy24]

When someone wants to know how to name or identify a chord, all they are looking for is identification of the purely harmonic aspect of the music. A C major triad can sound different in a billion ways. No one can say that rhythm does not play a role in how things sound, for example. It makes a huge difference! So does orchestration, so does timbre, articulation. In other words, how something sounds is always a combination of all the different musical factors put together. Everything is inseparable. But the answer to their question is still a C major triad. That's the harmony. In other words, when music is studied or analyzed, we must break it down into the different elements which combine to form music.

If you look at a harmony textbook such as Tonal Harmony, it is basically totally focused on the harmonic aspect of music. Obviously counterpoint must come into play, and a little rhythm, just to help understand the harmony. And when they analyze a progression with Roman numerals, there is no reference to the voicing, whether it is open, closed, spread, complete or incomplete, contains doublings, etc. And if someone knew that book backwards and forwards, they may still have no idea how to compose or understand music. Because the combination of notes into some identifiable harmony is only one aspect of the music. All a chord symbol does is tell you which notes should be played, but not how. (Even if the chord symbol is a polychord or upper structure symbol like Emi/C, to restrict the voicing in the upper notes, it's still possible to decide on register, choice of instruments, articulation, rhythm, etc.)

I guess my point is, if you want to get really specific, you would identify the chord, and then also discuss how it's being voiced. e.g. An Abmaj7 chord with C in the top voice and a drop 2 voicing. But no one would identify that harmony as simply a drop 2 voicing. It would be completely ignoring the actual harmony, i.e. what notes make up the chord. So a chord made up of C, F, and B may be a "quartal chord" built off C, but that doesn't help explain what it is, or where it comes from. Calling it Ionian gives it the harmonic source. I mean, you can build many other quartal chords off of C that would have a completely different harmonic source. Change the B in our exmaple to Bb (C, F, and Bb) and now you have a C Mixolydian chords. Or keep the B and change the F to F#, now you have a C Lydian chord.

[sammy24]

Also, I don't know why "harmony" should mean "impression". The listener's impression is a combination of all the musical aspects. One of the things that helps to form the overall impression is the combination of all the notes. Like a major chord gives off a certian identifiable major flavor whether it's closed, or open, or even cluster. Of course each voicing or "shape" impression will also another aspect to the overall impression. You can make the case that a simple root position I chord in C and a simple root position F chord in C, both voiced identically, give off the exact same impression from the voicing, since it is the same voicing. (Only the fact that the notes themselves in an F chord are from the active notes of the scale make the chord sound active and not resting.)

[Ogg Vorbis]

What I meant was...

Thanks, Sammy. I think I understand what you're saying...you are coming from a jazz orientation where someone hands you a leadsheet and the changes include C(add9) G13 and so you sit at the piano and use open voices based on fourths, etc. Or you are arranging for big band and you spread the voicing of a chord out or you compress the voicing into a close voicing so that it becomes secundal. These are arranging or voicing techniques but the changes are still the changes.

I also like Km7's point she or he made earlier about context being important. Sometimes we musicians look at a harmony like C F and B and say, "Oh well it's a CMaj7(sus 4). Our work is done here - who's buying the beer?" But you could find the same three notes in Bach, Ravel and Keith Jarret. They are not used the same way and therefore (at least in my way of thinking) they are not the same "chord."

But again, I totally agree with the point you made that you can arrange the same changes in many, many different voicings. Thanks for your really good reply!

[sammy24]

Thanks for your comments as well. It's definitely so true that context makes a big difference. When a musician who's into pop or rock hears Mozart for the first time (or the twentieth time), they may have quite a hard time understanding the music, even hearing the harmony of chords they already know. You definitely can't go get a beer until you've analyzed all the musical aspects, harmony, rhythm, harmonic rhythm, melody, function of the musical elements, articulation, dynamics, etc. it can be overwhelming, but i think the answer is to focus on each one a lot, eventually you become simultaneously aware of all the different aspects. I kinda think all music theory is, is a way to learn to become aware of all these things, after you understand them. I feel like I've only just started this process, i got a long way to go!

[jancivil]

In your context of tertial more or less functioning changes, I'd call it G7/C. "Sus 4 maj 7" is kind of an exotic naming for a jazz context. Actually an odd sound (for that particular context) if you dwelled on it, which I wouldn't guess is what happened.

The tritone F/B really amounts to the G7 chord, whether or not the pianist or guitarist has it covered. The bass player may well give you that G by ear.