What is the difference between music and noise? [years-dead slappyfight revived]

[vespers75]

One feature of the human brain that isn't seen in other primates is fine motor control and temporal perception regulated by the basal ganglia, this is needed for vocalization and music among other things. I think there's some irreducibly essential brain hardware at play here that separates human music from what a hypothetical animal music would be, and probably a gap wide enough that music might not be the best word for sound that alters mental state in animals.

The basal ganglia is present in all vertebrates, let alone humans...and there is the striatum division found in primates (including, but not exclusive to, humans) and not other vertebrates.

[jopy]

fair points--nothing said here that i would disagree with; i suppose the subjective judgment call of whether animals can hear "music" is as subjective as the definition of music itself, at least to me.

[eduardo_b]

fair points--nothing said here that i would disagree with; i suppose the subjective judgment call of whether animals can hear "music" is as subjective as the definition of music itself, at least to me.

Well, we know they can hear music. I have no doubt that our cat hears music, but he has zero visible response to it. Interestingly enough, if the music has clicks or pops in it (not part of the music), it's quite obvious that he notices these. The clicks and pops, to my way of thinking, are noise, not music.

[jopy]

Well, we know they can hear music. I have no doubt that our cat hears music, but he has zero visible response to it. Interestingly enough, if the music has clicks or pops in it (not part of the music), it's quite obvious that he notices these. The clicks and pops, to my way of thinking, are noise, not music.

i meant, of course, that what they pereceive (not sense) may not be music.

so your cat knows the difference between music and noise, and we're having such a problem with it (21 pages!). the cat may know something we don't.

[xh3rv]

The basal ganglia is present in all vertebrates, let alone humans...and there is the striatum division found in primates (including, but not exclusive to, humans) and not other vertebrates.

The research I've read didn't talk much about what the biological differences were, just that the function is quite different in humans than e.g. chimps - our variant of the basal ganglia is essential to some particularly human things. What is striatum division?

[vurt]

I think that classification of some series of tones or sounds as subjectively appealing is something many animals could do, especially those animals with more developed brains. So I don't necessarily think one can say definitively that humans are the only species that can recognize music as distinct from ambient sounds in the environment. Of course, humans are the only creatures that can produce complex compositions, so don't take me to be making too radical a point.

Given that abstraction as a cognitive process is, by definition, complex, I don't see this being applicable to animals in general. As someone who has been very interested in evolutionary biology for a long time, the complexities of instinct and behavior (including response) can be mistaken for more than they are, but they are not abstraction.

Response to music doesn't indicate abstraction. Even among humans the ability to process abstractive thought varies to considerable degree, which seems linked to intelligence (what we refer to as IQ). A perfect example is music theory. One can love music and know absolutely nothing about music theory, which is 100 percent abstraction and beyond the capability of any animal except some humans to comprehend and understand. Theory itself is purely a human abstraction. So are music genres. It's a long list.

/edit
There's the old joke about a roomful of monkeys at typewriters eventually resulting in a book, but in reality that's simply not true. One cannot write a book without abstractive thought. Which leads to the question of animals creating music. And, ironically, right back to what is music and what is noise.

ive seen some painting by monkeys that where pretty abstract.
i even remember some elephants paintings going for a princely sum in some art exhibition.

[vurt]

fair points--nothing said here that i would disagree with; i suppose the subjective judgment call of whether animals can hear "music" is as subjective as the definition of music itself, at least to me.

Well, we know they can hear music. I have no doubt that our cat hears music, but he has zero visible response to it.

not surprised ith the stuff you play, get her some decent stuff.

Interestingly enough, if the music has clicks or pops in it (not part of the music), it's quite obvious that he notices these. The clicks and pops, to my way of thinking, are noise, not music.

sounds like he would enjoy some aphex or squarepusher maybe?

[eduardo_b]

Well, we know they can hear music. I have no doubt that our cat hears music, but he has zero visible response to it. Interestingly enough, if the music has clicks or pops in it (not part of the music), it's quite obvious that he notices these. The clicks and pops, to my way of thinking, are noise, not music.

i meant, of course, that what they pereceive (not sense) may not be music.

so your cat knows the difference between music and noise, and we're having such a problem with it (21 pages!). the cat may know something we don't.

[eduardo_b]

ive seen some painting by monkeys that where pretty abstract.
i even remember some elephants paintings going for a princely sum in some art exhibition.

I've seen articles about these. I do wonder if the novelty aspect isn't much of the response to this. If you or I had the same result, the reaction from the art community might be quite different.

[vespers75]

What is striatum division?

In primates, the striatum (the largest part of the basal ganglia) is divided into two components; the putamen and the caudate nucleus.

[arcades]

@arcades : no offense to the band, just joking. I'm thinking of them because I saw them play live last week at Hellfest and was blown away. As I like the band I was able to identify some bits and pieces of tunes I knew in the massive flow of sound, but I saw other people there who did not know the band and just walked away with a strange look in their eyes
I listened to conversations afterwards and heard people say "I like extreme music but this ... I mean ... well ... I just can't figure it out" [/url]

i don't even know that band

[vurt]

i like the dillinger escape plan, but i wouldnt call them noise per se, more extreme metal/extreme thrash, but noise is something different when it comes to music, its not about how loud it is. well sometimes it is

[wrench45us]

Glenn Branca did some pieces that mixed extremely loud bursts with very soft passages. I believe the point of the piece was to become aware of the sense of hearing at its extremes and how perception can be fooled into hearing things that aren't really there. (and maybe vice versa) At least that's my sense of it. I don't think he was doing it just to hurt people.

animals who have that brain part noted above and so can do vocalizations are capable of sensing rhythm as rhythm is essential to forms of 'speech' -- That was why that dancing cockatoo was on the news a few weeks ago. Kind of shook up science that some other species could perceive/keep a beat.

neither of which has any clarification fro the difference between music and noise

[liqih]

talking about music makes culture, but it gives us no truth about it, "noise or music still" depends on the culture of the listeners, no escape. My 2c

ps IMHO all we can do to "grab" the music meaning is to play and listen, if we could explain music by words there would be no need for music.

[aciddose]

trying to compose music for animals is actually pretty interesting. most of us probably have some limited (or, too much) access to a cat or dog, so that's an easy place to work from.

cats tend to be extremely interested in wing-flapping, barking, howling and scratching / creaking sounds. you also have to take into account they have a range more around 120hz - 52000hz (as far as i know) compared to ours so the kick drum is pretty useless while congas may be slightly interesting if they have a crackling or more natural wooden (for example, a rock rolling over roots or a log impacting gravel) timbre. they seem to hate water and the sounds it makes but this effect is only triggered in the 18khz++ range so most of our equipment can't create it.

dogs are interested in panting, cracking branches, rolling leaves, barking, howling, the threat sound produced by hoofed animals by exhaling through the nostrils (apparently) and others, although i haven't spent as much attention with dogs.

of course humans are interested in sounds with some pattern to them, screams, barks, howls (interesting this is common everywhere), water, birds, wind, hoof sounds, the sound of falling objects seem to produce a very powerful response.

i'd assume the sound of wind combined with a thump may represent falling fruit, for example.

the most interesting thing about humans specifically is that we seem to care much about melody - this may be rooted in vocal pitch symbolizing different emotional states.

i've already ranted in the past about why i think we're attracted to rhythm - that is most likely because it represents tribal bonds, working together at a common task and producing sounds specific only to that action in almost the entire environment. for example we spent a lot of time flint knapping which produces a specific sound and it should be possible to regain the same general range of rhythm and timbre just by attempting to emulate creating the tools we can find. the most obvious footsteps, breath, heartbeat and suckling i don't think makes as much sense since it should be in common with all mammals.