Halion Sonic

[Megakazbek]

Heh, I'm beating a dead horse here, but there is seriously no difference technologically between a Motif and a desktop computer system, so saying that 'OH SW IS SO INFERIOR TO HW' is completely stupid (imo). Last time I checked, a computer system IS hardware that contains software (OS and apps)! Much like a synth like a Motif which houses software as well.

IMO, "completely stupid" is to assume that if there is no technological difference in HW and SW, then there must be no other differences as well.
May I point out that there is also no technological difference between a freeware Synthedit newbie plug and u-he Zebra (for instance). So people who buy Zebra must be idiots because it cannot be possibly better than freeware plugin from someone who's just beginning to learn Synthedit!

No, not close. Keep trying.

Thanks for pointing out my mistake and sharing your expertise to explain what the REAL reason is. Oh wait...

[UltraJv]

The obvious difference between hardware and software (Motif vs VSTI) is marketing. Yamaha dont want to make a software Motif as its a different market. Its easy for musos to sit in judgement of the big guys but thiers is the last word. Why do you think that all hardware manfacturers sue when someone tried to emulate? Unless the emulation carries a licence from Yamaha (aint gonna happen) youre dead in the water.

[standalone]

No, not close. Keep trying.

Thanks for explaining my mistake and sharing your expertise to explain what the REAL reason is.

It's nothing, really.

Do you think that Native Instruments, Steinberg, Spectrasonics et al would go through all the hassle of designing, coding, testing, producing, advertising and supporting a software instrument if they could only expect to sell 500 copies?.

[UltraJv]

No, not close. Keep trying.

Thanks for explaining my mistake and sharing your expertise to explain what the REAL reason is.

It's nothing, really.

Do you think that Native Instruments, Steinberg, Spectrasonics et al would go through all the hassle of designing, coding, testing, producing, advertising and supporting a software instrument if they could only expect to sell 500 copies?.

Yes, 500 copies that would kill the Motif hardware profit, not good economics. Motifs sell to people who dont want anything to do with standard computers. HS wont be a Motif vsti. Like Hypersonic, it will be a generic workstation type thing.

[Megakazbek]

Do you think that Native Instruments, Steinberg, Spectrasonics et al would go through all the hassle of designing, coding, testing, producing, advertising and supporting a software instrument if they could only expect to sell 500 copies?.

Since when they're making auto-arrangers?

[kbaccki]

The difference in price is immaterial

The price isn't immaterial to Yamaha and Guitar Center! They want you to buy more hardware units... It's a great business model. Tweak the design a little bit year by year and every new model is $2500 like the previous model. Compared to a piddly little $100-$200 upgrade fee in the software world. Most of the hardware is "upgradeable" these days, but certainly not infinitely scalable like a PC, and that upgradeability comes at a significant cost relative to an open platform (obviously). Roland/Cakewalk integrated the Fantom VS into a DAW-centric product... but it's still a hardware synth in a physical box. There's probably a good reason for that!

If Yamaha came out with a 100% software Motif, let's say minus the MIDI controller part + price adjusted for the lack of CPU/RAM/DSP componentry and charged you $1500 would you buy it?

I dunno, that's a lot of clams for a piece of software... plus it'd have to be strongly copy protected, which many people "don't like" (not CP, but overly strong/aggressive CP)... plus it'd have to be crippled in some way so they can keep selling you sound add-ons and such like they do with the hardware...

I'd just like a program that does what a Motif - hell, even a PSR - does, in software.

I get alot done with the mishmash of sequencers and effects and sound sources, from the myriad synths, and cheapy SF2 patches all the way up to the complex Kontakt acoustic instrument emulations... but I do agree with you and many others on that point. A sorta mega workstation product would be nice in many ways. Something that has a high quality hybrid engine, fantastic sound library like most of the hardware today, some basic sequencing/arranging/auto-arranging/etc. etc., something that can stand up to live performance or weekend songwriting in the B&B without a glitch or a crash... I just wouldn't expect the major hardware vendors to jump at the chance to shoot themselves in their respective feet.

Definately a product opportunity there though for some enterprising developer...

I listened to the HS demos. All I can say is: "No sir, I didn't like it."

[Count_fuzzball]

Heh, I'm beating a dead horse here, but there is seriously no difference technologically between a Motif and a desktop computer system, so saying that 'OH SW IS SO INFERIOR TO HW' is completely stupid (imo). Last time I checked, a computer system IS hardware that contains software (OS and apps)! Much like a synth like a Motif which houses software as well.

IMO, "completely stupid" is to assume that if there is no technological difference in HW and SW, then there must be no other differences as well.
May I point out that there is also no technological difference between a freeware Synthedit newbie plug and u-he Zebra (for instance). So people who buy Zebra must be idiots because it cannot be possibly better than freeware plugin from someone who's just beginning to learn Synthedit!

My point is, there is no real reason for anyone to contrast a (digital) synth that uses a cpu/ram/rom/flash memory to a computer which also has cpu/ram/rom/flash memory, y'know?

Basically, everyone on here seems to say 'if it runs on a PC/Mac it's software' and if it isn't it's 'hardware'. But compare, say the yamaha dx7 to a PC/Mac running FM8. What difference is there between them in terms of the physical hardware they use?

Yamaha DX7:
-Has a case
-Keybed (built into it)
-Storage (via tape/floppies or such for saving presets? ROM for storing the factory defaults)
-Outputs (L R outputs I think? Also a tiny screen)
-Input - (For controlling and programming the synth)
-An OS (Usually a proprietary OS.)
-A CPU (Has to somehow process those algorithims right?)
-RAM

PC/Mac:
-Has a case
-Has a keybed (not built right into it yet)
-Storage (USB drives, hard drives etc)
-Outputs (could be an internal/external soundcard/monitor)
-Input (via mouse/keyboard etc)
-An operating system (Windows/Linux/OS X)
-A CPU
-RAM

But, There is a technological difference between, say a synthedit plug and Zebra. The programming of it (In the case of the DX7, this would be the way FM synthesis is implemented in it, how everything reacts with everything else).

[danbroad]

I understand entirely that the business model and target market is entirely different from Motif to Halion Sonic. However, remember that the 'Motif Heritage' and 'Sound Design By Yamaha' is being proclaimed loudly by Steinberg, not me.

[standalone]

If Yamaha came out with a 100% software Motif, let's say minus the MIDI controller part + price adjusted for the lack of CPU/RAM/DSP componentry and charged you $1500 would you buy it? ]

0% CPU&RAM and comes with a vst editor.

[djanthonyw]

Motifs sell to people who dont want anything to do with standard computers

Where are you getting this information from exactly? There are thousands of people and studios recording with computers that also have numerous workstations including Motifs. Why do you think they make rack versions?

[TiUser]

...but there is seriously no difference technologically between a Motif and a desktop computer system, so saying that 'OH SW IS SO INFERIOR TO HW' is completely stupid (imo). Last time I checked, a computer system IS hardware that contains software (OS and apps)! Much like a synth like a Motif which houses software as well.

It's not a technology issue here - also there IS a hw difference as the sound is made by independent DSP resources with granted horsepower - it's about feature set and usability. It's also not about it is not possible to make such a software - just no one offers it. I know the software that emulates arrangers and I can tell you it's a nightmare and a big waste of time.

I really wished there were a software I could run on my pc that turns it into a PSR or tyros X. But there is simply none - that's the problem.

Concerning the never ending PC / keyboard workstation comparisons - just transport your home PC setup and you'll know the difference... it's not the sound or price or whatever mostly discussed, it's simply the package. On the other hand a good music PC is anything but a standard PC...

[UltraJv]

Motifs sell to people who dont want anything to do with standard computers

Where are you getting this information from exactly? There are thousands of people and studios recording with computers that also have numerous workstations including Motifs. Why do you think they make rack versions?

Simple - a workstation dosnt require a PC. It has a built in sequencer. A rack unit dosnt have a keyboard, you buy that for the sounds alone. You cannot buy a Motif vsti, easy when you look at things

Most people are "astounded" that Yamaha hasnt made "loads" of money from a vsti Motif. They must be dumb huh? Its gonna take a KVR Muso to tell em how to make money

[djanthonyw]

Simple - a workstation dosnt require a PC. It has a built in sequencer. A rack unit dosnt have a keyboard, you buy that for the sounds alone. You cannot buy a Motif vsti, easy when you look at things

Most people are "astounded" that Yamaha hasnt made "loads" of money from a vsti Motif. They must be dumb huh? Its gonna take a KVR Muso to tell em how to make money

No, you said

Motifs sell to people who dont want anything to do with standard computers

What you just replied with didn't really justify the fact that

There are thousands of people and studios recording with computers that also have numerous workstations including Motifs. Why do you think they make rack versions?

[UltraJv]

Simple - a workstation dosnt require a PC. It has a built in sequencer. A rack unit dosnt have a keyboard, you buy that for the sounds alone. You cannot buy a Motif vsti, easy when you look at things

Most people are "astounded" that Yamaha hasnt made "loads" of money from a vsti Motif. They must be dumb huh? Its gonna take a KVR Muso to tell em how to make money

No, you said "Motifs sell to people who dont want anything to do with standard computers".

What you just replied with didn't really justify the fact that

"there are thousands of people and studios recording with computers that also have numerous workstations including Motifs. Why do you think they make rack versions?"

I dont have to justify anything I say. Its a conversation, not a courtroom

[djanthonyw]

My point is that the markets certainly do cross over.