Halion Sonic

[danbroad]

Ultra, I take it from the smiley that you're using irony rather than misplaced snobbery - and so I agree, it's a shame manufacturers don't seem to recognise the potential market for home users here. Keyboards with arranger functions far outsell computer based products - think of the global sales of PSR's, for example. Also, I remember how cool everyone thought the wavestation was when it came out - in no small part due to the 'complete productions' of presets like 'ski jam'...

Just because we're pretty schooled in the methods of production and audio engineering; mastering and composing; sequencing and track layering.. doesn't mean that on occasion we just want to play for the sake of it. There's a place for both.

[Megakazbek]

Well, I think PSRs outsell computer-based products exactly for the reason that 99% of potential arranger users want it in a keyboard instrument, and NEVER in a PC.
Basically, with the additional hassle that computer creates, it's hard to "just play". You have to connect all the stuff, load and set up the software, etc, whereas PSRs need to be just powered on, they even have their own speakers so you don't have to worry about audio connections and other stuff. I actually really like arranger keyboards, but arranger as a program on PC? For me it's close to absurd.

[danbroad]

Megakazbek, I heard a similar quote 15 years ago. It went something like this... "I actually really like synthesizers, but synthesizers as a program on PC? For me it's close to absurd."

You seem to think in terms of problems, I think opportunities. Most schools and homes have a computer ready to go, but they don't drop into the world of music production because it's percieved as artificially 'high end'. For the 12-year old who's shown an interest in music who has a computer in their room, there's a potential user. For the school class who want to 'play and create' rather than sit for 12 hours creating a track, there's a potential user. For the accomplished musician who just wants to sit and play a while, there's a potential user.


Sorry, but this KVR snobbery doesn't cut it with me. After all, which professional musicians would be seen dead with an arranger like a Motif these days? I mean, it's so beneath us. It's not like you see them being used on world tours or performance stages. It's a miracle Yamaha can get any seasoned pro to stand next to one long enough to get an advertising photo...

[Sotiris]

Auto accompaniment and arranger functions are useful even in a "pro" setup.
My studio is full of hardware and software synths, effects and DAW software, which is the main working method for me, but there are many cases where auto accompaniment can help. Sometimes you are facing a tight deadline, or you need something to help kick start your inspiration, or you simply want to have fun rearranging preset ideas ... the list goes on.
Besides, what is the dividing line between, say, auto accompaniment in a Yamaha PSR keyboard and the dual arpegiators in a Korg MicroX ? They both produce "instant music" with one key-press, BUT you can twist and turn them into something new and interesting by assigning different sounds, tempo, and small pattern changes ... i don't feel that i HAVE to actually play all this stuff to "feel pro".

[Caine123]

why you think roland doesnt make a vst? cause vsts seem to destroy the hardware market a lot, i love vsts but i buy them, many others not and you cannot copy a hardware like a vst.
but to say vsts are crap or anything like that is ridiculous cause nowadays their sounds and possibilities are awesome!

[TiUser]

Its funny, I though the days of "Band in a box" (auto accompaniment) were over! Cant believe some KVR people still want that

Band in a Box is still around. It's pretty capable imho in terms of jazz progressions. It's also no auto accompaniment, it's more accompaniment composition.

The point is simply if you want to have a backing band in a certain standard genre but you are just a keyboard player it's the fastest way to get that - without being an expert in drumming, bass playing,... mixing and mastering. It's not easy to get similar sonic results from pc stuff with the same ease in a couple of minutes... It's obvious that this is not the creative burst for composers but a more than capable way to play nice covers.

I would be happy if there were just a vst that could load and play tyros styles. The midi part might not be the real issue but the sound generator with the proprietary mega voices. Technically that's not much more than sounds with articulation switches but practically the styles are programmed for that sound set... and if you are forced to use another sound generator making all sounding fine again is not an easy going 5 minute task... and btw. the switches work via velocity ranges here and not articulation keys, so...?

Another difference with arrangers is integration and random repertoire rather than chains of individual projects/songs. That's a different organizational approach - better for playing - less for DAW style recording.

Concerning markets - I agree that there is a huge market. It's imho similar to HW keyboards in general where > 85% of customers are no pros, just passionate amateurs of any kind.

[zvenx]

Maybe I am a musical snob but what is described above, if was included in Halion Sonic would be a sure way to ensure I dont' buy it.
rsp

[danbroad]

Plenty of others would, though. That's the beauty of it.

[TiUser]

Maybe I am a musical snob but what is described above, if was included in Halion Sonic would be a sure way to ensure I dont' buy it.
rsp

You do not need to use it.

I understand that you don't want to pay things you don't need.

May I ask if you would use the flex phrase technologies in HS? If your answer is yes be aware that parts of this are not much different to auto accompaniment.

I think a workstation should be more than just another sound module. As said many times it should provide live playable sounds. That's not just about (auto-)articulated solo sounds but also ready to use sections, harmonizing and much more.

Don't tell me that all the DAW "handmade" backings are so superior to auto accompaniment. A lot of the loop generated stuff is even more boring and worse in terms of lacking cord progression. On the other hand a real track by track composition is MUCH MORE work. So you can't really compare that. But I think none of both techniques making music needs any snobbery - it's just different.

What I have heard so far from halion sonic does not put my pant's off, really, even when I just reduce my view on the sounds only. 'til now I think there are better options around for similar money. But I stay tuned and I am ready to change my mind.

[bobbybland]

I loved the performance mode on my workstations, not saying I used them everyday,but alot of times,it's a refreshing way to find a piece of music. And when they have enough intelligence to play along via accompaniment,it's pretty damn cool.Dan imo, this is what flexphraser will eventually become.Stay persistent brother, I was one of the guys pushing in the motifator/steinberg forums,for a motif plugin,for awhile and it' starting to appear here obviously..
To the guy who mentioned hardware companies not wanting to do softsynth's because of piracy, this has been true for ages,the thing is... It's bound to happen,why? Because the economy,workflow of producers and money.. There will always be some sort of piracy as long as there's bandwith, so what do we do , stop developing plugins? Shut down the internet?
Nope, none of the above, the market will always find a way to overcome this. As long as you support the products, and they are clever enough to provide decent protection, a plugin has the ability to make TON's of profit..

Remember there isn't any physical hardware being mass produced,which is great for profits, they only have to rewrite CODE!! much cheaper

[TiUser]

In the meanwhile I've been checking back to Kontakt player. The latest 4.1 was a surprise to me, the background sample loading strategies are a big step forward. Still not instant but handling is MUCH faster than the first 4.x version I've tried a time ago. My old NI pianos now load in about 2s - about 10 times faster as before in Kontakt 3.5 player. When instruments are put in an instrument bank it's almost instant. The gui seems to work better as in the initial 4.0 releases too and the demo sample content has been reworked as well.

Still I have no clue about accompaniment like performance features in Kontakt also urban beats seem to have a kind of vintage drum machine included.

What's interesting about Kontakt is the scripting options - I have to learn more about this. Maybe that allows having brass sections triggered by cords yet properly spread across instruments or simple playable string divisi?

[longbongsilver]

Sounds better than I expected actually. No idea why the clips of users sound so much better than what Steinberg themselves posted.

[bobbybland]

Yes I agree, if I we're Yamaha or Steinberg, I'd get those demo's off and put up some new ones..

[danbroad]

To date, I've only heard 2 demos of multis, and although they sound very decent, I'm curious to know how they're made. Ade, just to clarify: how exactly does a chorded accompaniment work?

Can I play, with the left hand, C-G-C majors and expect the accompaniment to follow, whilst I noodle with the right hand [as it were, ahem, ahem]?

[**cowers, expecting the usual KVR pun-fest....**]

[TiUser]

Sounds better than I expected actually. No idea why the clips of users sound so much better than what Steinberg themselves posted.

I think it's a difference listening to single sounds or mixed arrangements. The final value and ease of use of a sound set often shows up when you combine things. Solo sounds can easily be impressive but when you put that together in a backing track it probably does not work so well any more... imho a good sound set should work in any circumstance and even on less than "high end" speakers like usual PA's...