Sending external program changes

[kanthos]

As far as I can see, the way to send program changes from Cantabile to an external device is to do so with a MIDI Trigger, and the only thing triggers save with a subsession is the enabled state.

Previously, I had two keyboards and one was serving as a master, sending program changes to the other and to Cantabile, using the Session list to control my subsessions. I've sold that master keyboard and replaced it (because the sounds were better and suited my needs more) with one that cannot send arbitrary program changes on arbitrary channels, and I was hoping Cantabile would pick up the slack.

Here's the problem. I play at church, where we have a large pool of songs to draw from, using typically 5 or 6 for a given set. My Cantabile session has two instances of Kontakt and an instance of Kore, and one subsession for every song or part of a song that we do. For a given set, I load the right samples into Kontakt, drag the right Kore sounds into the Kore instance (I don't want all Kore sounds and all samples that I'd ever use in memory, I don't have that much RAM), and then make a setlist, picking the specific subsessions for the songs we're doing in the order that I need them.

So far, so good, but I also want Cantabile to send program changes to my two hardware keyboards. The only way I can think of right now is to make a trigger for every possible program change on each hardware keyboard, which'll be a total of 64 for my Roland VR-700 and 384 for the 3 combi banks on my Korg TR, and have each subsession activate the two exact triggers that I want. This'll add a lot of bloat to my session; at the very least, it'll make it awkward to pick the right program change triggers.

Is there an easier way to do this in Cantabile? A way to have one trigger per keyboard that remembers its state somehow? Any way to send any MIDI message of any kind with some part of the message unique to or based on the subsession number? One possibility is that if I can somehow send a program change or even CC that uses the subsession number, I can use Bome's MIDI Translator (which I already use to map CCs to keystrokes to control a PDF Viewer with all my chord charts loaded) to map the outgoing message from Cantabile to the right program changes. What I want to avoid, if possible, is the long, long list of triggers in Cantabile or the alternative of having Bome's also listen to the program change message and map it, needing to create the setlist for a given service in two places (both Cantabile, to order subsessions correctly, and Bome's, to send the right program changes externally).

Any way to simplify this?

[kanthos]

Something similar that I thought of: what's the most convenient way to send program changes on specific channels to a multi-timbral instrument?

[TiUser]

This question touches a point I've criticized in the past too.

Technically the triggers serve the needs and purpose but practically it's cumbersome to manage...

It end's not with just sending program changes to external multitimbral sound modules, you can do the same with internal vst's like Kontakt too. Additionally sounds in HW modules are often modified by cc settings or sysex data, for instance in GM or XG midifiles...

All this can be done with triggers, however the list of individual items would be massive... There is no assistance here except triggers carry the raw data technically needed.

Here some of my thoughts:

I think one thing missing is a view option to show just the active triggers for a subsession. The check marks to activate just a few from a big list is a nightmare in situations like presented here.

Another idea might be having trigger groups - i.e. triggers consisting of a list of sub triggers that can be sent as one unit - and more important, managed as a unit for delede/cut/copy/paste and similar operations.

In general I think it also needs tools to manage sessions/subsessions more simple, for instance merging two sessions or splitting one session with many subsessions into multiple.

Unfortunately I doubt we will see such helpers soon - as long as Brad is working on making a VST out of Cantabile...

[kanthos]

Yeah, that's what I figured with triggers; I was just hoping I'd be surprised somehow by something I didn't know about. The DLL version can't come fast enough though; Cantabile's major shortcoming over Ableton Live is Live's use of triggering clips; it has a lot more options and does it much better than Cantabile. Putting the two together will make for a *really* good setup.

Thanks for the reply!

[TiUser]

Well, I don't believe Cantaible was ever thought as a competition to Ableton live. So I agree Cantabiles mediaplayers could be more advanced and compete with clips in a way. The other way round I don't think Ableton Live is as flexible as Cantabile in hosting plugins.

I personally am looking for a SW replacement of arranger keyboards, but nor Cantabile neither Ableton Live seems to able to manage that to a full extent. Some other solutions out are not really great too.

[iaoranaemaeva]

I personally am looking for a SW replacement of arranger keyboards, but nor Cantabile neither Ableton Live seems to able to manage that to a full extent.

No, playing styles is completely out of reach of DAW or VST hosts! Did you try Live Styler or One Man Band?

[TiUser]

Yes.
Both are chaotic imho.

I have Livestyler but given up using it for two reasons.

First there is no high end sound generator that can play high end styles the way they are meant to. So making styles sound great is difficult. Of course that alone is a problem with all midi style players...

Second the software quality is not at all on pro level. Even simple things are buggy, for instance when you have done a registration selection and start browsing wrong items are highlighted that are not selected. Sometimes buttons do not respond proper that did versions before - some versions later these work and others go crazy... Midi routing is a miracle and so on. To me all this is something very basic, I have complained in the forum but no one cares, nor users neither the developer. Instead I've been criticized several times for pickyness or even being foolish having not done my homework and wasting expensive developers minutes for responses... I am really fed up to deal with this.

I have looked into one man band too. The ideas here seem to be better but the programming is as chaotic. Technically the midi clock isn't stable enough and style replay can get jerky. I assume the clock is windows timer based and that is not stable enough for midi realtime applications - even it works most of the time somehow - it is not reliable.

However I think a radical makeover of one man band could be a winner as some concepts seem to be better thought out - even Livestylers main page suggests a more professional program.

Both programs are not good in hosting VST's.

Vice versa I haven't seen any Styleplayer VST... which I think is a product the market is missing.


From software quality standpoint Cantabile is a top notch work. Livestyler and OneMan Band are typical shareware. I am sorry to say this as I know too well how much work has been put even in these projects.

But well, I once asked for a LiveStyler VST and the developer replied he had tried doing this but given up as VST is such an unstable standard... LOL.

Probably you better see what this is all about, do you?

[iaoranaemaeva]

I entirely agree with your analysis TiUser: I have owned both programs for years and never could appreciate them! To tell the truth, I own a Korg Pa800, which is a real delight to play

[TiUser]

Well, my "problem" is I had a Tyros 2 and that stopped working after about 3 years. Repair would be too expensive and getting a new Tyros even more...

Even before I was looking into software replacements. I still think there is demand for that but for some reason no one offers this.

One reason might be that just pumping midi is not enough, you need the proper sound generator and that is proprietary stuff. Just using GM styles isn't a catcher... There are some other points like cord recognition and harmonization where for instance LifeStyler simply can not compete at all. The knowledge and fine tuning of HW is very hard to match - experienced over many years, derived from practical needs.

All the VST stuff is just bits and pieces compared to an (auto) arranger workstation where you can start playing right away.

I sometimes have the impression that all makers think of huge business with arranger workstations - as entertainers make bucks, not just art or tracks and can adjust the huge expense. The passionate hobbyists fall by the way... I can't adjust 3500€ for a keyboard every 3 years...

So here I am back. Computers can do great sounds and give us all sorts of instrument emulations and production tools but there is nothing like a competitive auto arranger workstation software for live use yet.