KVR Audio

MaxSynths · Post by **MaxSynths** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:21 am

Well then get a Karma TiUser

I think theu are quite cheap and what can be better than the real thing? Also in the soft realm something like Karma would be a CPU hog.

It's already there: Korg Karma. Why do you want a soft version?

TiUser · Post by **TiUser** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:53 am

I just referred to the OP question. I don't own any device providing Karma (technology) but I admit I've looked into the Karma topic for longer myself - especially because I think it is hard to get what it is in all facets...

The OP has been using Karma (the technology) in Karma (the original Korg keyboard incorporating it) and Korg M3 and is looking for a replacement on par. I just tried to give arguments to better sort out what the differences between some suggestions and Karma might be. That's not meant offensive in any way - that's just sorting out some points.

Just to comment on the wavestation suggestion - that's a different beast either. It's true that Karma can control wave sequencing too, but that is only in Karma - hw combinations that have wave sequencing capabilities in their tone generators - like Oasys.

Karma is already available as software. The point is you need a Korg Product to make it run, like M50 or Triton. Once you've got that dongle you can send Karma midi to any other Keyboard or sound module as well... still it's the question how useful this is, Karma performances are optimized for the supported sound sources and if you use others you might run in the same trouble as making an auto accompaniment style sounding great on a sound generator it is not meant for...

Karma (technology) is basically no CPU hog as it is a midi data generator - and as such technically 99% independent from the sound generator (except specialties like the quoted wave sequencing) which usually takes the most resources in a system.

The original Karma (keyboard) just had one "karma module", the M3 provides 4 modules at the same time. The announced OpenLabs version shall provide 6 modules. I am not sure about the software variant but I believe it's more than 4 modules too.

I think price wasn't discussed yet. I agree that binding Karma to Korg Keyboards limits it's user base dramatically.

So what can be better then Karma? Karma 2 of course...

To be serious, I just haven't seen anything that seems to be as easy to use while providing similar results. That's btw the same with auto accompaniment workstatons... I don't really like their structure too, but I've found no way to get similar results with software with the same ease of use and sonic results.

MaxSynths · Post by **MaxSynths** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:33 am

So what can be better then Karma? Karma 2 of course... Wink

Agree

Robhicks666 · Post by **Robhicks666** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:17 am

Guys, thanks for the discussion to date, it's been really useful but It sounds like I will be limted to the hardware piece here.

To back up what TiUser was reminding the thread, I do in fact use two Korg synths with Karma functionality build in, the Karma itself and the M3. As I travel a lot, I was looking for a laptop based soft-synth that could roughly match the capabilities as lugging a huge/heavy workstation around Europe isn't really an option.

Again, thanks again everyone for posting your thoughts. I appreciate your time here.

Rob

TiUser · Post by **TiUser** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:44 pm

Difficult to add something useful.

Maybe you can transport just the m3 module?

Probably you can borrow a M3 in europe for your tour to avoid oversea shipment?

I know some guys traveling just with their Tyros data on a memory stick when they know a Tyros is available on a venue. Maybe something similar is possible with a M3 too?

...'til we get air inflatable keyboards transportation still is an issue...

adydub · Post by **adydub** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:07 pm

It's well worth exploring the scripting engine in kontakt. There's a few karma style presets, and you can do a lot with the bundled script library. Probably trades off a bit of immediacy for greater depth, but it's the closest thing I'm aware of in software.

DevonB · Post by **DevonB** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:50 pm

Is using the tabletop M3M not an option or something? It's only 10 pounds and a lot smaller than the 61 31lb or 88 key 58lb versions of the M3.

Devon

MWSOS · Post by **MWSOS** » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:30 pm

rexlapin wrote:For those of you with Reaktor 5, Ernest Meyer's Husserl
ensemble is a very powerful generative sequencer which
can output MIDI to other VSTis. Here is a link:
http://heavensonearth.com/Husserl-Sapphire.html
He is also working on a VST version, but it is still in
development. I hope you find this helpful.
Cheers,
Scott

So pleased you mentioned this one Scott - I was really impressed as well when I reviewed it.

The VST version should ensure lots more sales, but the current Reaktor version already produces stunning results with a little imagination but very little effort

Martin

KrisM · Post by **KrisM** » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:42 pm

pdxindy wrote:Like others said, nothing like Karma or even remotely close in software... I really do wonder, with all the developers and endless number of softsynths, why no developer has made something like this. Regularly someone asks for this and lost of people chime in that they would also like something but it does not happen.

You can't do it with SynthEdit

MaxSynths · Post by **MaxSynths** » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:16 pm

KrisM wrote:
pdxindy wrote:Like others said, nothing like Karma or even remotely close in software... I really do wonder, with all the developers and endless number of softsynths, why no developer has made something like this. Regularly someone asks for this and lost of people chime in that they would also like something but it does not happen.
You can't do it with SynthEdit

Synthedit itself is a powerful modular host which can do a lot of interesting things for realtime performances and autoacompainment stuff.

Lack of knowledge. Laaaaaaack of knowledge

StephenKay · Post by **StephenKay** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:57 am

Hi KVR-ers,

Someone brought this thread to my attention; I thought I'd comment on a few statements and provide some info.

1. KARMA Technology is presently licensed to Korg on a non-exclusive basis. I am free to license it to other companies.

2. The Open Labs version of KARMA (named KARMA OL) is still underway. As a project, it has been way more massively time-consuming than anticipated and as such is way behind schedule. But it is actually nearing completion in a releasable initial version. So the suggested "money issue" mentioned above is not accurate; and the project has been steadily moving forwards, even though it probably looks stalled. The plan is to still release it sometime soon.

3. KARMA in Korg products is at version 2.2. KARMA OL is now going to be version 3.0; it has a ton of new features (I won't get into them in detail here), many requested by users, and is quite a bit more powerful. The interface has also been redesigned to be more like a large plug-in; a single large window with multiple tabs and sub-tabs.

However, it is still a standalone application. The concept behind the Open Labs version is:

KARMA OL runs as a separate app. It uses the DAW Reaper as a VST host and sequencing environment. It communicates with Reaper through a Virtual MIDI Driver. Each KARMA Performance (i.e. a combi in Korg products) is a separate Reaper Project with 30 to 40 tracks, all mapped out, various individual instrument tracks and master effect busses, with various plugins provided on the Open Labs platform used in each track to generate/process the music.

The Reaper developer was kind enough to work with me to ensure that: selecting a KARMA Performance in the KARMA app automatically opens the correct Reaper Project behind the scenes, you can control the tempo of the project from KARMA and various other niceties to link the two apps. It works about as seamlessly as two apps working together possibly can.

I must say that, throughout working on this project, I've really become hooked on the flexibility of unlimited tracks and unlimited plugins (up to CPU limitations of course) being controlled by KARMA vs. the fixed architecture of a workstation, and these projects sound pretty fantastic IMHO.

And of course, since a KARMA Performance is a Reaper Project, all you have to do is press record in Reaper and away you go.

Record audio, or record the MIDI that KARMA is generating, or both - it's all set up and routed for you.

4. I intend to, at some point, turn the (new) KARMA 3.0 app into a VST plug-in. This has always been a desire/plan (for years) - just lack of time and other projects have kept it on the back burner. I've been told by the developer of Reaper that he thinks it would be possible to encapsulate the KARMA application (3.0 version) almost as is into a multi-channel VST. I've not had time to investigate this yet, but if that's even close to true, I would love to do that.

Goseba · Post by **Goseba** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:04 am

StephenKay wrote: 4. I intend to, at some point, turn the (new) KARMA 3.0 app into a VST plug-in. This has always been a desire/plan (for years) - just lack of time and other projects have kept it on the back burner. I've been told by the developer of Reaper that he thinks it would be possible to encapsulate the KARMA application (3.0 version) almost as is into a multi-channel VST. I've not had time to investigate this yet, but if that's even close to true, I would love to do that.

I can't wait to see this happen.

Many thanks for the update Stephen.

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:27 am

Goseba wrote:
StephenKay wrote: 4. I intend to, at some point, turn the (new) KARMA 3.0 app into a VST plug-in. This has always been a desire/plan (for years) - just lack of time and other projects have kept it on the back burner. I've been told by the developer of Reaper that he thinks it would be possible to encapsulate the KARMA application (3.0 version) almost as is into a multi-channel VST. I've not had time to investigate this yet, but if that's even close to true, I would love to do that.
I can't wait to see this happen.

Many thanks for the update Stephen.

Would love to see this... but then I have been hearing about the Karma VST for a long time so I no longer have any expectation to see it any time soon... I'd buy it in an instant though...

audiojunkie · Post by **audiojunkie** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:27 am

pdxindy wrote:Like others said, nothing like Karma or even remotely close in software... I really do wonder, with all the developers and endless number of softsynths, why no developer has made something like this. Regularly someone asks for this and lost of people chime in that they would also like something but it does not happen.

energy-XT was originally going to be a plug-in that would do these things, but it evolved into a full-functioning host. Even now, it is capable of doing a lot of similar things (sequencer within a sequencer stuff & such). Actually, there are probably quite a few hosts that can run as a VST that can do a lot of these things and more. FL Studio comes to mind. MuLab is another. Maybe they can't do exactly the same stuff as Karma, but they come close and also offer a lot more.

--Sean

Edit: I just read the message from Karma Developer, Stephen Kay, and that sounds really cool! I encourage it!

atukao · Post by **atukao** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:30 am

StephenKay wrote:4. I intend to, at some point, turn the (new) KARMA 3.0 app into a VST plug-in.

That's great to know.
Been hoping this would happen for several years: would buy it without hesitation.
Hopefully this will come to fruition sometime in the near future.

Any soft synths like Korg Karma out there?