Any soft synths like Korg Karma out there?

[StephenKay]

Would love to see this... but then I have been hearing about the Karma VST for a long time so I no longer have any expectation to see it any time soon...

Yes (sigh), that is true.

I wonder how many people here use (or would use) Reaper?

One problem that has always kept me somewhat away from the VST concept is the idea of "content" - one of the things that makes KARMA powerful (at least going by what people say they like about it) is the fully setup "performances" (combis in a Korg product) that are instant song templates that can be customized into thousands of variations. It's true that a KARMA GE (Generated Effect) - which corresponds to what you might call an "arp" or a "phrase generator" is often "married" to the sound generator that is generating the output (as someone mentioned above) and just randomly hooking up KARMA GEs to various plugins is not going to necessarily get the same level of quality that a full setup programmed by a KARMA Developer would...

The fact that KARMA is itself "just" an advanced MIDI generator with no audio-generating capabilities of its own (in present form) limits it somewhat without any included "content". Of course, the other way to go is to make the KARMA App a VST Host.. huge job... and sort of like re-inventing the wheel when there are so many full-featured DAWs out there.

[aMUSEd]

Would love to see this... but then I have been hearing about the Karma VST for a long time so I no longer have any expectation to see it any time soon...

Yes (sigh), that is true.

I wonder how many people here use (or would use) Reaper?

One problem that has always kept me somewhat away from the VST concept is the idea of "content" - one of the things that makes KARMA powerful (at least going by what people say they like about it) is the fully setup "performances" (combis in a Korg product) that are instant song templates that can be customized into thousands of variations. It's true that a KARMA GE (Generated Effect) - which corresponds to what you might call an "arp" or a "phrase generator" is often "married" to the sound generator that is generating the output (as someone mentioned above) and just randomly hooking up KARMA GEs to various plugins is not going to necessarily get the same level of quality that a full setup programmed by a KARMA Developer would...

Have you investigated Kontakt scripting? - it's very powerful and I'm wondering if the Karma language could be replicated in K script. Then you could do a deal with a content provider to create a soundset of complete Karma enabled patches that has the quality you're wanting, while at the same time opening up the possibility of people being then able to use the scripts with their own samples having seen a demonstration of how they work in action.

[StephenKay]

Have you investigated Kontakt scripting? - it's very powerful and I'm wondering if the Karma language could be replicated in K script. Then you could do a deal with a content provider to create a soundset of complete Karma enabled patches that has the quality you're wanting, while at the same time opening up the possibility of people being then able to use the scripts with their own samples having seen a demonstration of how they work in action.

I don't believe it would be possible to replicate the KARMA engine in some other scripting environment. It's hard to describe, but that's really apples and oranges - KARMA is a massive engine of C/C++ code with thousands and thousands of functions. Hard to believe, but I've actually been developing it for 16 years now.

A more likely possibility (which I'm also considering) is producing my own Kontakt Library (I have a Fairlight Series III here, not to mention tons of Korg synths and a few others), and then bundling that with the KARMA app or VST such that all of the included content used the Kontakt library (as a start). Then you could reassign and reroute to other plugins as desired.

[Goseba]

Out of interest, would a Reaper only version be a possibility? I would certainly be interested and I doubt the only one!

[TiUser]

...
A more likely possibility (which I'm also considering) is producing my own Kontakt Library (I have a Fairlight Series III here, not to mention tons of Korg synths and a few others), and then bundling that with the KARMA app or VST such that all of the included content used the Kontakt library (as a start). Then you could reassign and reroute to other plugins as desired.

That would be a 180 degree strategic turn - Karma not bound to any HW - highly appreciated, regardless how this is done.

I think a sound set with Karma definitely makes sense.

I remember well my poor attempts to make software arrangers sound great forced to adding my own sound generator... it's much simpler to get started with an included professionally produced sound set.

[StephenKay]

Out of interest, would a Reaper only version be a possibility? I would certainly be interested and I doubt the only one!

It is a distinct possibility, but it would be Reaper plus a certain list of required plugins. Currently, for the Open Labs project, among the ones I can think of offhand, besides the stock Reaper plugins we are using mainly Sylenth, WusikStation 6, Dimension Le, and a limited version of BREVERB LE (those are the ones that presumably cost money), along with a list of free ones such as the Kjaerhus Audio Classic Series, mda plugins, and some others. I would be looking into licensing options for some of those in order to put together a "package". Anyway, it's one idea...the version that I'm working on for Open Labs doesn't necessarily have to only be on an Open Labs machine, provided one had Reaper and all the required plugins. I know, it's fairly convoluted...

[TiUser]

Out of interest, would a Reaper only version be a possibility? I would certainly be interested and I doubt the only one!

It is a distinct possibility, but it would be Reaper plus a certain list of required plugins. ...

Well you have to check out your markets but in a way I think this idea is somewhat silly to get started with a PC Karma package needing a set of plugins probably more expensive than an "M50 as dongle"... I fancy with Karma for a long time but spending a lot on Korg HW just to get access to Karma was never an option for me.

The DAW people seem also to overlook the live real time aspect of Karma - similar as with arrangers where I've heard many questions too why one would need that...

BTW: Is the OpenLabs version of Karma still alive? Haven't read official news about this for over a year now...

[StephenKay]

Well you have to check out your markets but in a way I think this idea is somewhat silly to get started with a PC Karma package needing a set of plugins probably more expensive than an "M50 as dongle"

Depends on what I could arrange by licensing them as a package. But I somewhat agree with you.

The DAW people seem also to overlook the live real time aspect of Karma - similar as with arrangers where I've heard many questions too why one would need that...

Not sure what you mean here, as my app takes care of the live real-time aspects - the DAW is just the VST host...

BTW: Is the OpenLabs version of Karma still alive? Haven't read official news about this for over a year now...

Re-read my earlier post.

[HanafiH]

Anyway, it's one idea...the version that I'm working on for Open Labs doesn't necessarily have to only be on an Open Labs machine, provided one had Reaper and all the required plugins. I know, it's fairly convoluted...

Hi Stephen, I've been a registered user of Karma Triton since 2004. I understand why this product needs a Triton to function at its best, but I have also had extensive experience of running the MIDI out from Karma to other synths, mapping or filtering out Triton controller messages, and I think that this is the most useful mode for my kind of lunatic music.

Dongling the Karma Triton to the existence of my Triton Rack is a pain in the ass. It limits where I can work with Karma to my main setup and ties up one of limited number of hard MIDI lines to a synth I may not be actually working with. This was the original poster's issue, too. If I had one wish come true, it would be not having to have to do all this.

Great software.

[pdxindy]

Would love to see this... but then I have been hearing about the Karma VST for a long time so I no longer have any expectation to see it any time soon...

Yes (sigh), that is true.

I wonder how many people here use (or would use) Reaper?

One problem that has always kept me somewhat away from the VST concept is the idea of "content" - one of the things that makes KARMA powerful (at least going by what people say they like about it) is the fully setup "performances" (combis in a Korg product) that are instant song templates that can be customized into thousands of variations. It's true that a KARMA GE (Generated Effect) - which corresponds to what you might call an "arp" or a "phrase generator" is often "married" to the sound generator that is generating the output (as someone mentioned above) and just randomly hooking up KARMA GEs to various plugins is not going to necessarily get the same level of quality that a full setup programmed by a KARMA Developer would...

The fact that KARMA is itself "just" an advanced MIDI generator with no audio-generating capabilities of its own (in present form) limits it somewhat without any included "content". Of course, the other way to go is to make the KARMA App a VST Host.. huge job... and sort of like re-inventing the wheel when there are so many full-featured DAWs out there.

I understand your points, and they are legitimate... However, when I think of buying a Karma VST or buying an M3 to get the Karma engine, I am doing so with the idea that I will be using it with my own synths and sounds.

I paid now $200 for Numerology ($120 initial purchase and $65 upgrade to version 3 Pro) and it is a sophisticated step sequencing environment with no meaningful audio generation. Plenty of people buy Numerology and it has no content. I paid that much for it knowing it was not even exactly what I want. It does not work well as an arp.

If there was a Karma VST available with no content I would buy it the day it came out. Sure it would be nice to have some fully setup performances to learn from, but I would buy it regardless.

On the Mac there is not any sophisticated arp available at all... There is nothing even halfway decent out there! And most softsynths do not transmit midi so I am left using the arp for a specific synth and they are all limited in various ways and rudimentary compared to Karma. There is a big hole waiting to be filled and you have an outstanding product basically ready to go but in the name of perfection, the good never materializes (pardon me for being blunt).

I think the Karma name has enough clout that people would go for it even sans content as long as there were good examples and tutorials. Over time there would be a user library of setups for specific synths. Anyway, maybe I am wrong about there being enough people to buy it as a sophisticated arp, but my money is yours for sure!

Thanks for discussing it... gives me some enthusiasm... I have wanted a totally kick ass arp that I can use with any softsynth for so long... and Karma is that and more.

[TiUser]

The DAW people seem also to overlook the live real time aspect of Karma - similar as with arrangers where I've heard many questions too why one would need that...

Not sure what you mean here, as my app takes care of the live real-time aspects - the DAW is just the VST host...

Imho DAW's are meant to record, not to perform live. Ablteton live is somewhere inbetween.

Maybe I am wrong but I never liked using a DAW to jam or perform with. I prefer using dedicated live hosts.

BTW: Is the OpenLabs version of Karma still alive? Haven't read official news about this for over a year now...

Re-read my earlier post.

...I read that you are working on it but the point is no official news for so long can mean anything, everything or nothing . I don't think work is much different for an OpenLabs workstation or a pc, as these are basically dedicated pc's... so?

[StephenKay]

Imho DAW's are meant to record, not to perform live. Ablteton live is somewhere inbetween.

Maybe I am wrong but I never liked using a DAW to jam or perform with. I prefer using dedicated live hosts.

But if the DAW is just sitting in the background like a playback engine, doing it's job, while you interact with another application....

...I read that you are working on it but the point is no official news for so long can mean anything, everything or nothing . I don't think work is much different for an OpenLabs workstation or a pc, as these are basically dedicated pc's... so?

I think hearing from me could be considered "official", so you are looking for what, exactly? An announcement from Open Labs?

[TiUser]

Imho DAW's are meant to record, not to perform live. Ablteton live is somewhere inbetween.

Maybe I am wrong but I never liked using a DAW to jam or perform with. I prefer using dedicated live hosts.

But if the DAW is just sitting in the background like a playback engine, doing it's job, while you interact with another application....

...then you need to start two apps and probably connecting these via virtual midi driver cables. It's not about technical impossibility but convenience - that's all.

...I read that you are working on it but the point is no official news for so long can mean anything, everything or nothing . I don't think work is much different for an OpenLabs workstation or a pc, as these are basically dedicated pc's... so?

I think hearing from me could be considered "official", so you are looking for what, exactly? An announcement from Open Labs?

Probably a statement on your site... where the last entry concerning Karma for OpenLabs is from 1-April-2009. Not that it really matters, just to explain my impression...

Finally I don't care too much about announcements - what counts is when things are available...

[szurcio]

For those of you with Reaktor 5, Ernest Meyer's Husserl
ensemble is a very powerful generative sequencer which
can output MIDI to other VSTis. Here is a link:
http://heavensonearth.com/Husserl-Sapphire.html
He is also working on a VST version, but it is still in
development. I hope you find this helpful.
Cheers,
Scott

So the Sapphire version of Husserl is the most advanced? I don't quite understand the differences between these 3 versions and they all cost the same.

[rexlapin]

I believe the various versions were developmental steps in
creating Husserl. If you check on the website Sapphire, for
instance, has a list of items which were new to it in the
Husserl line. Also, Ernest has been responsive to questions
and would know best. I also wanted to mention his super
arpeggiator Godel: http://heavensonearth.com/Godel/. And for
the effort of registering on his site there are a bunch of
very cool free Reaktor ensembles to download, as well as a
Reaktor version of the long discontinued Spektral Delay for
sale.
Cheers,
Scott