A jazzy chord progression and modulation?

[RandolphCarter]

I'm writing a jazzy hip-hop tune, and I came up with a chord progression, which I want to show to you so you can correct any mistakes I made. I also dabbled for the first time with conscious modulation and want to know if I did well.


The chord progression for the main structure of the song is:

Emi7 GbMa7#5 Emi7 (Emi7) CMa7


The chord between brackets is just a repetition I throw further in the song to add variation.

It's supposed to be in the key of E harmonic minor.


So, I modulate to G natural minor in the following way, after three bars of those chord progressions described above, I then play the following chord progression in the last bar before the different key:

Emi7 GbMa7#5 Emi7 G7sus4


and then the chord progression in g natural minor comes in:


G7sus4 Cmi7 Ami7b5 Gmi7




All of that may be full of errors, so please don't hesitate to point them out... that's how you learn!



On a separate note, the melody I came up on top of that is what I feel the weakest spot, am I doing anything wrong?


It's very simple, just:

E E D E G F#

and then

E D D D E G F#



And I change it when I modulate to:


G A# C A# D D# F F# G




Thanks a lot in advance, guys.

[jancivil]

what do YOU think is errant here?

I would have... not a lot to say outside of that, there is no per se right or wrong unless you're trying to get something which has to stylistically fit, this or that preconception. As far as 'jazz', there are 'jazzy' types of alterations, I'd have to hear them in your treatment to say if I thought it didn't work here or there.

You first E minor tune is natural minor with that D, so 'harmonic minor' is an error in nomenclature.

My notes:

> Gb Maj7#5 sticks out a bit in the midst of some vanilla 'Em7'.
> You appear to harmonize the D with that Gb+5. Which is interesting.
> You have [ F F# G ] in your second tune

Given these three bits of information, I would (just as an improviser given a chart by itself) tend to play around with a variant of that plain-ish E minor (EG: a G M7#5 or "Em M7": [ E G D# F# ])
Your [ F F# G ] can be foreshadowed with [ D D# E ] in the first. Melodic turn = D D# E G F# (D D# E)...

but not hearing your context, tempo, voicing etc, that may be 'an error' to do. It may be that little difference in melodic treatment gives drama that the first one shouldn't have... etc, etc.

[SJ_Digriz]

Having all chords use a 7 is not necessarily jazz

[wrench45us]

Having all chords use a 7 is not necessarily jazz

on the theory side, jazz theory begins with 4 note chords and that 4th note is the 7th, but one can see the issue at hand

it's not dissimilar to the difference between noise and music, when does music become jazz? or neo-soul? or alt-urban hip-hop?

my playing didn't really start sounding 'jazzy', in the way I thought of 'jazzy', until I just recently expanded my chord shapes and started integrating various dim chords and flat 5's to balance off all the sweet 7th and 9th chords with some sour, but that's just me

[kbaccki]

but not hearing your context, tempo, voicing etc, that may be 'an error' to do. It may be that little difference in melodic treatment gives drama that the first one shouldn't have... etc, etc.

I agree here. The voicing alone make a huge difference, IMO, when you're talking about potentially complex harmonies and movement. Take 4 "jazzy chords" played in succession... with a plain block voicings maybe those chords sound disjoint and... er... just plain crappy. But with specific voice leading or harmonic implication/explication thrown in, maybe it's the coolest sounding 4 chords you've ever heard. (e.g., see Bill Evans, et al. )

So... OP... post a snippet in the music forum, so we can all tell you how cool your progression sounds.

[jcrisman]

I'm writing a jazzy hip-hop tune, and I came up with a chord progression, which I want to show to you so you can correct any mistakes I made. I also dabbled for the first time with conscious modulation and want to know if I did well.

It would be interesting to know what instruments you are using, what your basic rhythm/time signature is, what your melodies are, and if there are any instrumental/chordal articulations since those too add or subtract from the "jazzyness" of a composition.

[RandolphCarter]

Ok guys, thanks for the help and the interest, here's the bare skeleton of the track:


http://www.goear.com/listen/e4cd8f0/c%C ... es-ocultes




Lots of work to do with it, but, tell me what do you think of the arrangement, harmony, melody, the "mood" it evokes, etc...

[Bobbotov]

The chords I hear off the track differ from what you posted. I am hearing Gmaj7#5 and not Gbmaj7#5 and Am,maj7b5 and not Am7b5.

[jancivil]

here's an idea to play around with - that triadic structure extends:

D F# A# C#
F# A# D (F#)
Bb D F# A

just to get a feel for that color. you get BbM7+5 as an alternate. (which figures over your fairly consistent tonic E as a b5 7 9 11 color. Everything here works more modally than as a function to take you somewhere new ie., modulate. So, it will be good for the time being to think of all of these phenomena as related to E min)

the thing which I did suspect just from the info you gave with no audio, that this chord will stick out as a very colorful and dramatic event to make the rest seem bland, is true.

One thing I would have guessed to do with that vanilla Em7 is to play with the +7 *D#*, move down to D as a pivot to that aug sound. If you do a couple of little bluesy things in a line...
for instance: E G A Bb A G E G | F#... (D#>) D... Bb... G - F#
you'll see how this aug chord is a color of, an extension of your tonic.

The thing I really think is weak is the C. From your consistent E min, it should be a new harmony to be some drama, but it just comes off out-of-place.

Try to figure F# into that chord (even as a non-harmonic tone, ie., resolve it down to E) and see if it doesn't give you something of a more 'poignant' effect.
Here's a voicing so as to compete with the color of that D+/F#+ area:

C F# B E.
(You can really get some interest with:
C F# B E G#...)
___________

Your modulation is effective as it's slightly surprising (but not jarring*).
The A half diminished chord isn't an effective voicing IME.

Try it with C in the bass: so you have C Bb Eb (G) to C A Eb (G);
now the move to G minor is weak; it lacks drive, which is easily provided by the dominant, D7
Like so:
C Bb Eb G
C A Eb G
C A D F#

If you work with this (connected, smooth) voice leading, it's much more effective than this block chord approach.
You can suspend/resolve or anticipate tones within each change, as well. (eg., in that last chord, suspend G, then F#, now your G minor)

[* structurally, you might see that Bb in the first bit, as a precursor to your G minor area...]

[RandolphCarter]

Bobbotov, you're right, your transcription of the chords is the correct one, not mine... I'm the kind of guy who gets into trouble when going beyond "vanilla" 7th chords so all this flat fifths n' stuff is giving me some trouble

Anyway, what a musical ear you've got! I'm impressed (not kidding) with you being able to distinguish the nuissances of chords like that when listening to them with other instruments going on. Does that come with practice?


Jancivil, thank you a lot for your explanation and ideas. I'll try them out tomorrow when I'm alone with Ableton and some spare time. Seriously, your post is a goldmine, thank you so much for helping me out. One question though, when you say to "try to figure F#" into that chord, you mean adding it to the already existing chord, or to introduce a F# chord and then an E chord it slids to?


I'll come up with more questions when I try your ideas so I hope I don't bother you by asking lots of them,

[Bobbotov]

Bobbotov, you're right, your transcription of the chords is the correct one, not mine... I'm the kind of guy who gets into trouble when going beyond "vanilla" 7th chords so all this flat fifths n' stuff is giving me some trouble

Anyway, what a musical ear you've got! I'm impressed (not kidding) with you being able to distinguish the nuissances of chords like that when listening to them with other instruments going on. Does that come with practice?

Just years of lifting music off of recordings and having memorized all chords and inversions at an early age.

I did a short experiment with four different progressions based around the first four chords you have. They follow one another. The first is:
Em7, Gbmaj7#5, Em7, Cmaj7 (the progressions you first put in your post)
The second is the progression you have in your clip: Em7 Gmaj7#5, Em7, Cmaj7. The third is: Em7, GmMaj7, Em9,11, Cmaj7#11 and the last is Em7, Dmaj7#5, Em7, CmMaj7.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/6/1/1 ... ssions.mp3

[jancivil]

B
Jancivil, thank you a lot for your explanation and ideas. I'll try them out tomorrow when I'm alone with Ableton and some spare time. Seriously, your post is a goldmine, thank you so much for helping me out. One question though, when you say to "try to figure F#" into that chord, you mean adding it to the already existing chord, or to introduce a F# chord and then an E chord it slids to?


I'll come up with more questions when I try your ideas so I hope I don't bother you by asking lots of them,

I mean adding. Bobbotov listed CMaj7#11, which is basically it. (I gave something in a quartal voicing that omits the fifth)

These straight triadic voicings and always including the perfect fifth... They're not that jazzy, the piano voicings aren't jazz voicings.

The fifth (when perfect) is already present if you and the bass have the root. It's 'thick' in some cases.
It's kind of candy-assed, I don't know how to put it. Broadway voicings. When you start to move harmonies and do voice-leading, it can be got out of the way to good effect. What's essential is 3rds and 7ths:

(R 3 7)
E G D / Eb G D / Eb G Db // Eb Gb Db / D F# C# / D F# C //
See how supple that is?

Do, I dunno, not only extend a triad to 7ths, but added tones. EG: The most obvious 'twinge' in minor is the second degree against the third. 'Add 2' is almost de rigeur in minor if you're a jazzer.

Now that I know that second chord is G+5M7 ("Gmaj7#5", I don't see well and see 'G major', this is an augmented triad), I want to hear you bring out the ambiguity with the sevenths, D (on the Em) vs D#.

The difference between jazz-tinged popular music and something more corny is subtlety, nuance, a little mystery or ambiguity, major/minor, 5/b5 oppositions. Since you introduce both of these, exploit them, be artful.

[RandolphCarter]

Here I am hoping you won't throw anything at me for asking more noobish questions, but you know, I feel that if I don't ask them I won't ever learn past the point I am right now!

With Add 2 do you refer to leave the third out and add the 2nd or to play the ninth?

What do you mean with "bring out the ambiguity with the sevenths? Could you provide an example? Like, for instance, "use the seventh on THIS chord, and then on the following chord, sharpen it a semitone, because this produces so and so effect".

I mean adding. Bobbotov listed CMaj7#11, which is basically it. (I gave something in a quartal voicing that omits the fifth)

OK, but if I add the D# to the Em7 chord, won't it clash with the D note already in it?

If I use CMaj7#11, with the voicing (voiced C B E F#?), aren't I effectively doing a substitution to the Em7 chord? Which of the Em7 should I replace with CMaj#11 and to achieve which effect? And why does it achieve that effect? (I mean for example, when learning about tritone substitution I kind of *get* that you can substitute one chord with another because they share a tritone ie, interval between their third and seventh).



About the modulation:

Your modulation is effective as it's slightly surprising (but not jarring*).
The A half diminished chord isn't an effective voicing IME.

Try it with C in the bass: so you have C Bb Eb (G) to C A Eb (G);
now the move to G minor is weak; it lacks drive, which is easily provided by the dominant, D7
Like so:
C Bb Eb G
C A Eb G
C A D F#

If you work with this (connected, smooth) voice leading, it's much more effective than this block chord approach.
You can suspend/resolve or anticipate tones within each change, as well. (eg., in that last chord, suspend G, then F#, now your G minor)

How are the different chords in your example voiced then, with C always as the bass tone?

WHy does the dominant, D7, provide drive to the G minor? Because, I always thought that the "drive" would be attained going from a dominant to a major chord wouldn't it?



Also, I understand that "suspending" a tone is to simply not play it after you've played it (so the ear "expects" it but then it doesn't show, introducing a variation), but how do you "resolve" different tones with the same chord? Wouldn't it mean changing the chord?



I'm also open to any interesting readings about the subject you want to recommend me... thanks a lot, for real!

[jancivil]

Here I am hoping you won't throw anything at me for asking more noobish questions, but you know, I feel that if I don't ask them I won't ever learn past the point I am right now!

With Add 2 do you refer to leave the third out and add the 2nd or to play the ninth?

'Add' means to keep the 3rd. (I call a '2 chord' when it subs the 2nd for the 3rd, which is also seen as a quartal chord inverted; eg: C D G, D G C, both more or less ambiguous as per 'what root'.)

What do you mean with "bring out the ambiguity with the sevenths? Could you provide an example? Like, for instance, "use the seventh on THIS chord, and then on the following chord, sharpen it a semitone, because this produces so and so effect".

I mean adding. Bobbotov listed CMaj7#11, which is basically it. (I gave something in a quartal voicing that omits the fifth)

OK, but if I add the D# to the Em7 chord, won't it clash with the D note already in it?

I mean alternating; I meant basically that the minor triad with a major seventh is implicit in your calling it 'E harmonic minor'. On a 'i' chord in minor, the minor 7 is... subjectively, maybe less interesting, vanilla.

If I use CMaj7#11, with the voicing (voiced C B E F#?), aren't I effectively doing a substitution to the Em7 chord? Which of the Em7 should I replace with CMaj#11 and to achieve which effect? And why does it achieve that effect? (I mean for example, when learning about tritone substitution I kind of *get* that you can substitute one chord with another because they share a tritone ie, interval between their third and seventh).

The little twinge in minor which gets to be almost de rigeur, is that F#/G dissonance, is all I'm really going for.
As a substitute per se, I don't know, it's all context and fitting some melodic or some movement. A 'C major' is a bVI in E minor and dwelling on it's a different function than i for sure, even dramatically so. A strong move could be that C F# B E, consider the E as a kind of suspension and resolve: C F# B D#, subbing for V... just throwing out ideas here and for sure I've lost the thread of what I said two weeks ago or whenever.
Or, voice it, say C F# G B. say, suspend the F# and resolve down to E, like you'd do on an Em. Just for exercise, play around with voicings, is all I'm going for.

About the modulation:

Your modulation is effective as it's slightly surprising (but not jarring*).
The A half diminished chord isn't an effective voicing IME.

Try it with C in the bass: so you have C Bb Eb (G) to C A Eb (G);
now the move to G minor is weak; it lacks drive, which is easily provided by the dominant, D7
Like so:
C Bb Eb G
C A Eb G
C A D F#

If you work with this (connected, smooth) voice leading, it's much more effective than this block chord approach.
You can suspend/resolve or anticipate tones within each change, as well. (eg., in that last chord, suspend G, then F#, now your G minor)

How are the different chords in your example voiced then, with C always as the bass tone?

WHy does the dominant, D7, provide drive to the G minor? Because, I always thought that the "drive" would be attained going from a dominant to a major chord wouldn't it?

Also, I understand that "suspending" a tone is to simply not play it after you've played it (so the ear "expects" it but then it doesn't show, introducing a variation), but how do you "resolve" different tones with the same chord? Wouldn't it mean changing the chord?

I'm also open to any interesting readings about the subject you want to recommend me... thanks a lot, for real!

It can mean changing the chord, but that's just naming, I'm trying to free you up with 'some counterpoint' ideas, which is historically where chord progressions even came from. IE: 'Harmony', not so much 'chords'.

'Suspension' means, generally, holding onto a (generally a non-chordal) tone in a harmony while other parts in the harmony change. Above, where I say 'suspend the F#'; it will have likely sounded before in, let's say a B chord, now you hang onto (suspend) it over the Em. 'Resolve' just means to go to a chord tone that's 'expected' (there it's obviously E since the G is right next to it, then it would seem to 'evaporate' rather than 'move').

The D7 drives to a G or a G minor because of the tension inherent in the tritone C-F#, which classically movess outward to Bb-G, or the B-G, same move... . I don't know where you get an idea of drive 'to major' as preferable per se. V7 to I, to i, it's dominant/tonic, period.

That sequence was designed to be 'connected/smooth' so I kept one voice static - you're going to G, so C, 'IV' is a good one to create a bit of tension; then finally as the 7th in the bass moving down to the third of the (new) tonic is satisfying but the way I set it up, it's not in a predictable way. You might suspend that G over the D7 for that kind of cadence: C A D G to C A D F#, now to Bb A D G or something. Note that there are a number of inversions there.

It's been decades since I picked up any book on harmony, so I'm so not the person to advise any. I'm not into books about it really. I would strongly suggest a class in four-part harmony writing. I would have looked at the textbook for the classes I initially took for years, but it was all made quite clear in class. You have to be tested on it, preferably a teacher plays your part-writing in class and you hear (and the class hears!) if it's good, bad or indifferent. One can make a really boring, weak progression into great music just by excellent part-writing. It's what's for dinner.

[jancivil]

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