TimewARP 2600 Thoughts (desired features)

[JimHeintzFromSifuAudio]

Hi All,

I have created a new thread to discuss the features that are most desired in a version 2 of TimewARP 2600(http://www.wayoutware.com/twarp.html). It has been a while since I have dug into TimewARP 2600, and I think it has been long enough. I plan to produce an update that will enhance the product, however, I don't want to forget that at it's heart, TimewARP 2600 is an ARP 2600.

Here is the list of features proposed so far in the other thread:

1. Step Sequencer/Sequencers... (let's define this because I have had a lot of people ask for more than a just a 1601...)

2. Colored Cables with transparency, or some way to hide them to see what is behind them.

3: New effects... If it is just post effects, I would find that boring because you can just chain existing VSTs... Effects that you could patch through might be interesting though. Please propose what you think would be good. I know a lot of people have desired a Limiter, and different filter modes/types.

4. Bigger UI option for larger monitors. For the record... I hate(or should I say seriously dislike) UI's that make you scroll to get places as is found in the 2600v... I prefer tabs... The problem there is cables... What are your thought?

5. (From poona) How about adding a high quality mode where it uses higher degree of oversampling? CPU is cheap nowadays compared to when TimewARP 2600 was first released.

6. <please fill in the blank>

As I said in the other thread, a project like this will take a bit of time. I cannot say when, or if it will be available... I guess that will depend on what kind of response I see here.

This is the first time I have tried to start a thread to discuss product development on KVR, so please be kind.

Best regards,

Jim

[MitchK1989]

So why does the site linked still say "coming soon!" under the "patches" section... An old unfulfilled promise from 2005? That's a great thing to have on your website

There's another one, where it says a TDM version is coming later "this year" or early 2006.

Also, no mention whatsoever as to what copy protection is used.

[Echoes in the Attic]

Quieter levels, and an accurate level meter which isn't always in the red.

Making the filter multi-mode would be cool.

Personally I don't see much point in effects in a synth, unless of course they can be modulated by the mod sources.

[zerocrossing]

I think the oscs can sound a bit more raw/imperfect. I think the filter could use a little brush up too to get that "honk" the 2600 is known for. What ever you did with KikAXXE is awesome. I wish more of that could go into TimewARP.

I'd love to see a better preset management system with preset browser.

Having the osc parameters read in voltage is silly on software. Frequency a bit more useful but I'd like to see a more music friendly implementation like 2600v... I miss the ability to see things in terms of notes and beats.

...in fact, no offense but other than the 2600v's sound (which I like but is very different) I like it's overall feature set and implementation a lot better. I don't mind the scrolling once I figured it out. Tabs can often be confusing too.

I see your point about effects, but it's nice to be able to save effect settings as part of a patch. Since we're talking about a modular, why not implement a feature like Vaz Modular's ability to use a VST as a module. It's awesome. I wouldn't think bad of you if a basic vintage analog chorus/phaser, tape delay and tube distortion effects got added to the reverb.

[poonna]

I agree about the volume level. As it is now, it's too easy to overload. I guess adding a global volume level which persists across patch changes would be helpful here.

As for the sequencer, I think his must be the number one feature request. I'm fine with 1601 or any analog style sequencer with control voltage output.

Now, for effects, I agree that it can be added later with a chain of plugins, so, IMO, it's fine not to have any changes in this area. Multi-mode filter, on the other hand, could be really useful.

For my own suggestion about oversampling level, I think it would be great if on the setting page, there's separate settings for real-time mode and render/offline mode. For example, I can set 2X for real-time but 8X at offline rendering.

[HunterKiller]

In no particular order: (both bugs and feature requests)

1) Levels going into the red (it's hard to tell if the signal is clipping or not, although sometimes it is.)
This whole issue needs to be fixed, both the incorrect meter reading and some incredibly loud patches, getting them into some kind of normal volume range.

2) Fix filter response and tool tip frequency readout. I never liked how the filter on Timewarp worked. It was adjustable by ear and all, but when one wanted to look at values and correlate, it just became a mess. On the filter tool tip it reads 21HZ when it really is cutting off at 3270Hz. It should read the value it is cutting off at, simple as that.

A converter program would be nice to go through the entire library of all the default patches (and those added by the user) and convert existing filter cut off values to correct ones. So that on the GUI the filter slider is in accordance to the scale. It wouldn't change the actual brightness/filter cut off of the sound but just move the slider and put it in the proper position on the GUI - in most cases higher than it currently is.

3) Change top filter cut off to 25kHz, for a range of 7Hz to 25000Hz, for the Lowpass filter. Or alternatively:

4) Add multimode filter with: 24LP (Moog Ladder Filter - Model 4012 VCF); 6, 12, 18, 24, 36 LP ARP Filter; 24HP; BP and Notch. Add multiple input/output points, to give the user an option of passing 1 or more Oscillators through 1 or more filter modes.

5) Add oscillator drift as an option - an on/off button or similar. To preserve the current patches.

6) Retrigger Envelope (AMP, FILTER) option for Mono mode (1Voice)

7) The ability to drag and drop presets within Patch Manager, from one bank to another, from one user to another. For that matter, rework the entire preset browser, and if possible make it a tab or seperate page to the front/main page.

8] Colored patch cables, colors assigned according to type of connection. Color meanings shown inside the synth, either help or a menu pop-up.

9) Move/hide/make invisible/transparent patch cables option.

10) Fix the brightness of all oscillator sine waves to represent the brighter sine waves found on hardware 2600s, not the pure sine tone that TW offers, alternatively you could also put a selector button for this, giving the user an option of pure and vintage sine wave.

11) Emulate the reverb to a greater accuracy!

12) Add step-sequencer, should be a cinch.

13)* Add a third page to accomodate effects. Routing would be done with menus.

14) Return the "right button mouse click" brings up Midi Settings window.

15) Model 2600C Oscillators

16) Completely revamp the GUI look and color scheme + resizable GUI. Also fix up the load up time.

17) Changing presets when the synth is bypassed in the host crashes both the synth and the host. When the synth is turned off by using the Power Off switch, and one changes to another preset it then takes a couple of seconds before the synth responds to an On request.

18] Preset Manager forgets the currently selected bank, sub-bank and preset when re-opening a project. It always returns to Default/Bass/Birdland Bass in the LED displays at the top.
The right sound is remembered, but not the right patch manager paths.

19) Patch Manager list gets screwed up when the number of patches exceeds Patch Manager window height.

[HunterKiller]

Tabs can often be confusing too.

Really?
Think Sylenth1 or Zebra/Ace, pretty simple, right!?
Keeps everything neat and not to mention: opens up a lot of possibilities.

1. Step Sequencer/Sequencers... (let's define this because I have had a lot of people ask for more than a just a 1601...)

Definitely. It doesn't have to be the 1601. It can be something much more extensive, it's in software right?, the sky's the limit. Material costs don't exist. Not to mention it could also become a plugin of its own if its done "big" in the first place.

3: New effects... If it is just post effects, I would find that boring because you can just chain existing VSTs... Effects that you could patch through might be interesting though. Please propose what you think would be good.
I know a lot of people have desired a Limiter, and different filter modes/types.

I've got no problem with either. The latter would obviously make the synth more intricate, which kind of takes away from the easyness/overall feel of an ARP2600. It's a situation of what outweighs what? Pros vs Cons.

This is the first time I have tried to start a thread to discuss product development on KVR, so please be kind.

I guess Mitch musta missed this one.

[breakmixer]

Quite simple to answer this,

after installation on my Windows XP Dual Core 32bit into my Cubase Sx3(Now on 5.5 btw),

well the Dll file was installed to Cubase/Vstplugins/Demo Software/Timewarp2600.dll

and not moved the dll manually, but it never showed in my VST Instruments list...

So, I uninstalled the demo as I couldn't even test it in my host(cubase)!

Maybe when you update it I'll try again in 5.5...

So a working demo .dll file would be great!

[metalifuxx]

So does this beg the question that the AdrenaLinn Sync Version 2 plugin is ready for windows/pc now? Me wants to try a demo.

If you can code effects like you did with Sync, I'm sure that they would be welcomed anywhere in the chain for TimewARP.

[JimHeintzFromSifuAudio]

WOW... This is quite a list. I am glad to see that there are both fresh ideas, and bug fixes mentioned. I need to take this all in and begin forming a prioritized list.

In no particular order: (both bugs and feature requests)

1) Levels going into the red (it's hard to tell if the signal is clipping or not, although sometimes it is.)
This whole issue needs to be fixed, both the incorrect meter reading and some incredibly loud patches, getting them into some kind of normal volume range.

This one has been asked for for a long time. I was thinking of a couple ways to address this. One is to first of all correct the patch library to adjust the levels issue. This issue was due to an early version of the program that had the levels to low, and the patches did not all get updated properly. Also, I was thinking about adding an optional limiter on the output. Also, as was mentioned, the meter level read out needs to be improved.

2) Fix filter response and tool tip frequency readout. I never liked how the filter on Timewarp worked. It was adjustable by ear and all, but when one wanted to look at values and correlate, it just became a mess. On the filter tool tip it reads 21HZ when it really is cutting off at 3270Hz. It should read the value it is cutting off at, simple as that.

I have had a few years to rethink the tool tip thing, and after working with Roger Linn on AdrenaLinn Sync, I have a pretty good idea what people are looking for in regard to musical read out. Perhaps show the frequency in terms of a musical note instead of frequency.

A converter program would be nice to go through the entire library of all the default patches (and those added by the user) and convert existing filter cut off values to correct ones. So that on the GUI the filter slider is in accordance to the scale. It wouldn't change the actual brightness/filter cut off of the sound but just move the slider and put it in the proper position on the GUI - in most cases higher than it currently is.

The new version would have to include a patch library converter to update the file format of the patches.

3) Change top filter cut off to 25kHz, for a range of 7Hz to 25000Hz, for the Lowpass filter. Or alternatively:

4) Add multimode filter with: 24LP (Moog Ladder Filter - Model 4012 VCF); 6, 12, 18, 24, 36 LP ARP Filter; 24HP; BP and Notch. Add multiple input/output points, to give the user an option of passing 1 or more Oscillators through 1 or more filter modes.

I believe that adding other filter modes, and even filter types would be a nice addition. I think I would like to make them all separate patchable outputs rather than a mode switch.

5) Add oscillator drift as an option - an on/off button or similar. To preserve the current patches.

This becomes a bit subjective.. Should there be a room temperature slider?

6) Retrigger Envelope (AMP, FILTER) option for Mono mode (1Voice)

Please describe what you want here, because there are already several ways to retrigger the envelopes.

7) The ability to drag and drop presets within Patch Manager, from one bank to another, from one user to another. For that matter, rework the entire preset browser, and if possible make it a tab or seperate page to the front/main page.

I like this one.. That would be pretty cool. I will have to do some thinking about what is best. Are there products that I could look at that you feel do this properly?

8] Colored patch cables, colors assigned according to type of connection. Color meanings shown inside the synth, either help or a menu pop-up.

9) Move/hide/make invisible/transparent patch cables option.

It is clear from the comments that the cables need a major face lift. I have some ideas in this regard.

10) Fix the brightness of all oscillator sine waves to represent the brighter sine waves found on hardware 2600s, not the pure sine tone that TW offers, alternatively you could also put a selector button for this, giving the user an option of pure and vintage sine wave.

This should not be too hard. I remember someone from ARP Instruments telling me that the original hardware's sine oscillator was really a filtered Triangle wave... That should not be too difficult.

11) Emulate the reverb to a greater accuracy!

I will look into this. Perhaps make it so you can alter the variables in the reverb to tune it your liking.

12) Add step-sequencer, should be a cinch.

No problem... There are a lot to choose from in terms of design. I think a 1601 as an option is a good one though. Personally, I want more steps as an option though too, and perhaps a way to create polyphonic step sequences.

13)* Add a third page to accomodate effects. Routing would be done with menus.

I was thinking the speaker holes could be used to provide an interface for cable ends, and have them map to effects on a separate page....

14) Return the "right button mouse click" brings up Midi Settings window.

That is different for Mac and Windows. The midi settings window is a good thing to have readily available. There may be some updating needed there too...

15) Model 2600C Oscillators

What are the differences with this model over the original?

16) Completely revamp the GUI look and color scheme + resizable GUI. Also fix up the load up time.

I think the idea of having a larger mode is good. I will consider new skins... What do you have in mind? It may be possible to allow people to contribute skins.

17) Changing presets when the synth is bypassed in the host crashes both the synth and the host. When the synth is turned off by using the Power Off switch, and one changes to another preset it then takes a couple of seconds before the synth responds to an On request.

What host and platform are you on? Of course I would like to fix any outstanding bugs during this process.

18] Preset Manager forgets the currently selected bank, sub-bank and preset when re-opening a project. It always returns to Default/Bass/Birdland Bass in the LED displays at the top.
The right sound is remembered, but not the right patch manager paths.

Sounds like I need to save a little more info in the host patch. Should not be too hard.

19) Patch Manager list gets screwed up when the number of patches exceeds Patch Manager window height.

It sounds like the whole patch manager needs to be re-visited. It has been a while since I wrote the original patch manager which at the time was one of the only ones available in a plug-in.

All in all, there are a lot of good and well thought out suggestions here. I think there are more to come however.

Best regards,

Jim

[JimHeintzFromSifuAudio]

So why does the site linked still say "coming soon!" under the "patches" section... An old unfulfilled promise from 2005? That's a great thing to have on your website

There's another one, where it says a TDM version is coming later "this year" or early 2006.

Also, no mention whatsoever as to what copy protection is used.

Man... I guess I should go over the old site and bring it up to date. I had a person that was supposed to do that working with me (A long time ago). They created this site, and then split... I have tried to keep it fresh, but there are corners that have not been touched for a while. Thank's for pointing out this issues. I will look into getting these items removed and updated.

I do have a few patches that I should put on the site. At one point we had a plan to build a patch database on the site, but that idea left with the person who built the site...

As for the TDM version, I actually had TimewARP 2600 running on TDM hardware. I spent about 4 months working on it only to find out that it would barely be able to support one voice and we decided to shelve the project. I failed to notice the text on the site. Sorry about that.

-Jim

[JimHeintzFromSifuAudio]

So does this beg the question that the AdrenaLinn Sync Version 2 plugin is ready for windows/pc now? Me wants to try a demo.

If you can code effects like you did with Sync, I'm sure that they would be welcomed anywhere in the chain for TimewARP.

I have AdrenaLinn Sync v2 running here on Windows for both RTAS and VST, however, we are still working on the installer and other details regarding rolling it out. It sounds just as killer on Windows as it does on Mac, and I can't wait to get it into your hands. Just don't want a ton of tech support, so we have to test it on bunch of different hosts and os's prior to general release.

-As for the effects, in AdrenaLinn Sync v2, It has allowed me to code some cool new stuff that could be included in an update like the Flanger, Phasor, Hi Pass, Band Pass, 12 db versions of the filters, a Limiter, enhanced Delay/Looper, Distortion, etc.

They could be used so great effect as an outboard effect rack.

Best,

Jim

[Vintage73]

Will this instrument theoretically have all of the functionality of the original ARP 2600?

I ask for a specific reason, but I'll keep that to myself for now.

[HunterKiller]

I have had a few years to rethink the tool tip thing, and after working with Roger Linn on AdrenaLinn Sync, I have a pretty good idea what people are looking for in regard to musical read out. Perhaps show the frequency in terms of a musical note instead of frequency.

The more information the user has the better. As long as the tool tip tells us exactly what freq it is at and it also corralates to the real cut off then all is fine. I never much liked percentages either.
Albino 3 has the kind of thing I'm thinking about.
The filter read out is pretty much the only readout that bugs me, I've no problem with voltages either.
I think it might be a good idea to have a "settings" menu in the new version, to adjust all the behind the scenes stuff, like oversampling, what kind of values the synth will represent to the user, either Hz/Voltages or Notes/Tones and so on.

I believe that adding other filter modes, and even filter types would be a nice addition. I think I would like to make them all separate patchable outputs rather than a mode switch.

Yup my thinking as well. The cables are gonna get busy though, so that's another thing to look out for, how to organise the screen real estate.

5) Add oscillator drift as an option - an on/off button or similar. To preserve the current patches.

This becomes a bit subjective.. Should there be a room temperature slider?

Definitely
There's a current discussion on analog drift in this topic: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4193113

6) Retrigger Envelope (AMP, FILTER) option for Mono mode (1Voice)

Please describe what you want here, because there are already several ways to retrigger the envelopes.

A simple switch, unless it would interfere with the overall design and signal flow.

7) The ability to drag and drop presets within Patch Manager, from one bank to another, from one user to another. For that matter, rework the entire preset browser, and if possible make it a tab or seperate page to the front/main page.

I like this one.. That would be pretty cool. I will have to do some thinking about what is best. Are there products that I could look at that you feel do this properly?

Yes definitely. Have a look at uhe's browsers, Ace/Zebra. Spectrasonic's Omnisphere, as well as Loomer's new browsers, first implemented in Aspect. Most people are looking for Windows Explorer like functionality as well as an extensive way to organise and search for relevant information.

10) Fix the brightness of all oscillator sine waves to represent the brighter sine waves found on hardware 2600s, not the pure sine tone that TW offers, alternatively you could also put a selector button for this, giving the user an option of pure and vintage sine wave.

This should not be too hard. I remember someone from ARP Instruments telling me that the original hardware's sine oscillator was really a filtered Triangle wave... That should not be too difficult.

Cool!

11) Emulate the reverb to a greater accuracy!

I will look into this. Perhaps make it so you can alter the variables in the reverb to tune it your liking.

Sounds good.
I'm guessing you'd put the reverb controls on that second page, while leaving the reverb mix sliders on the front page as they are now.

[HunterKiller]

12) Add step-sequencer, should be a cinch.

No problem... There are a lot to choose from in terms of design. I think a 1601 as an option is a good one though. Personally, I want more steps as an option though too, and perhaps a way to create polyphonic step sequences.

Whether it's the 1601 or something more Jarre-like, they both have their pros.

13)* Add a third page to accomodate effects. Routing would be done with menus.

I was thinking the speaker holes could be used to provide an interface for cable ends, and have them map to effects on a separate page....

Can't ask for anything better.
You could also use more screen real estate this time around. Monitors have enlarged a lot in the past 5 years.

15) Model 2600C Oscillators

What are the differences with this model over the original?

ARP2600 lore would tell us that this was when they used the Teledyne VCO chips, which were unstable but much better sounding chips then the ones that came after.
VSE has a nice summary of how the oscillators and filters developed over the 2600 production run: http://www.vintagesynth.com/arp/arp.php

Model 2600(the very first model), Model 2600C and Model 2600P version 1 all had the phatter sounding oscillators. I'm not sure which one is modelled in Timewarp, I was just suggesting, that if it's neither of these three, it'd be worthwhile to look into it.

16) Completely revamp the GUI look and color scheme + resizable GUI. Also fix up the load up time.

I think the idea of having a larger mode is good. I will consider new skins... What do you have in mind? It may be possible to allow people to contribute skins.

Yes third party skinning is great.
What I have in mind when I say a "more solid or more professional" gui, is something along the lines of Minimonsta, Linplug Organ 3, Arturia's stuff, Native Intruments B4...

The load up time, I'm guessing, is because of the gui.

17) Changing presets when the synth is bypassed in the host crashes both the synth and the host. When the synth is turned off by using the Power Off switch, and one

changes to another preset it then takes a couple of seconds before the synth responds to an On request.

What host and platform are you on? Of course I would like to fix any outstanding bugs during this process.

This is on Chainer mainly. I'll do some more tests, at some point in time I'm sure it also happened on some of the bigger hosts as well. But then again I've never seen anyone else mention this, so...

All in all, there are a lot of good and well thought out suggestions here. I think there are more to come however.

Best regards,

Jim

It's my pleasure to help out in any way.