Zen - classification

[softska]

Good call on Keys. Still, would be good to have both Piano and E. Piano categories in.

I agree, but instrument-specific in top level seems to be asking for trouble. It's easy to start theorizing we need a category of flute (to Kore: yes that is stupid when you've "woodwinds" already), or start separating "drums" and "percussion" etc.

That said, practical use should be supreme, so I guess it can't be avoided anyway or we'll have to change Strings to "bow" and brass to "blow"

[Big Tick]

Also of concern is, how do you further categorize the 300 e-pianos that eventually, will be in there ? This is where the interesting stuff about additional attributes comes in - and trying to come up with non-subjective tags is harder than it seems.

[softska]

Also of concern is, how do you further categorize the 300 e-pianos that eventually, will be in there ? This is where the interesting stuff about additional attributes comes in - and trying to come up with non-subjective tags is harder than it seems.

Maybe some sort of freeform keyword list in a field added by designer/user that can be queried? Unless the tag list can be extended easily by anyone (though easily be a mess), it's not all that practical to "plan-ahead". e.g. last.fm, as messy as their tag cloud looks (added by users), it actually works rather well.

[jens]

Clavinet would be string+plucked+chromatic.

Yes? I would not find it there, because I wouldn't look there - a Clavinet is an EP.

[Big Tick]

Interesting. Are you saying there is no way to classify presets in a way that will suit everyone, and that I should drop the project ?

[aMUSEd]

In interesting in hearing your views regarding classification. So far the Zen categories are:

Lead
Loop
Pad
Bass
Sound Effect
Brass
String
Percussion
Organ
Woodwind
Piano
Guitar
Voice

Every sound can have one or more category tags applied, and then additional, level 2 tags, like:
Synthetic
Ambient
Mono
Electric
Acoustic
Distorted
Percussive
Noisy
Bright
Breathy
Clean
Unpitched
Thin

I think it's very important to separate out the subjective and objective elements. In NI Kore there are 4 main sound categories: Type, Genre, Mode and Timbre. Out of those I generally find sounds by Type (e.g. piano, guitar, lead, bass etc) and Mode (additive, subtractive, dry, processed, evolving, etc) but I find the Timbre (warm, fat, cold etc) and Genre hopelessly subjective and of limited value. What is warm and fat to one person is often cold and digital to another and as for genre I'd say most sounds can be used for most genres so where do you start?

In your 2 lists there are objective things like subtractive mixed with subjective things like thin. I think they should be unlinked and that there should be a list of instrument types and another of sound type which would be things like subtractive etc (or if it's an effect effect type)

[jens]

Interesting. Are you saying there is no way to classify presets in a way that will suit everyone, and that I should drop the project ?

No, I'm just saying that I'm too stupid too read and subsequently should be banned from the whole of the internet!


DS was in fact suggesting sub-categories for EPs and hence you can safely ignore my retarted previous reply.

[jens]

reading his reply a third time I'm not sure anymore at all if that's what he meant...


Would be a good-idea anyway, I think (plucked, hammered, string, tines, FM, VA)

[Big Tick]

I think it's very important to separate out the subjective and objective elements.

Yes this makes sense. Thankfully I can reorganize the tags any way I want, with no impact on the already categorized presets.

DS was in fact suggesting sub-categories for EPs

Well, maybe this means that everyone's workflow and categorization is different. In Zen this clav preset could be tagged both as "Keys/EP/Clav" and "Strings/Plucked".

[jens]

Well, maybe this means that everyone's workflow and categorization is different. In Zen this clav preset could be tagged both as "Keys/EP/Clav" and "Strings/Plucked".

That would be good, I think.


I think it's time for me to apply for the beta (and to suggest two of my four favourite synth which didn't make it in there yet (third one would be Rhino, fourth one Foorius, which isn't available anymore))

[EvilDragon]

Clavinet would be string+plucked+chromatic.

Yes? I would not find it there, because I wouldn't look there - a Clavinet is an EP.

It actually isn't an electric piano. It's an electric harpsichord, which makes a whole lot of difference!

[jens]

Then a Rhodes neither is an EP, because it doesn't have strings, but rather tines instead.

[EvilDragon]

But it has piano mechanism with hammers, whereas clavinet has a mechanism that's more similar to harpsichord.

[Big Tick]

All true - but is this really the way you look up for sounds ? I mean, where you are in a middle of a track, are you thinking, "How about some funky pattern with plucked strings action-ed by a keyboard ?". Probably not.

To use an analogy, I don't think a chef would go, "How about adding some C12H22O11 to balance out the NaCl taste of this meal ?". No. They would add sugar and salt. It shouldn't be any different for music.

[jens]

But it has piano mechanism with hammers, whereas clavinet has a mechanism that's more similar to harpsichord.

So your personal opinion is that the stimulator is more important than the resonator regarding the character of a sound (and hence it's classification) (which would also mean it makes no sense to classify instrument as 'reed' or 'brass' b,t,w,). I don't think a hirarchic attribution like this neccessarily makes too much sense.


I classify a Clavinet as EP because:

- it is an electro-acoustic instrument

- it is played via a conventional keyboard

- which is velocity-responsive

- is has got an amplitude-envelope similar to that of a piano