Is there a sound problem on mixdown with FL Studio or not?

[trimph1]

if that is such then what is going on with the spectral differences here--?

but there are none

oh--that was what I thought--it just was looking a little odd---thanks for confirming that

[deleted]

DELETED

[rifftrax]

michi has a point, I'm afraid formal compositional/performance training really doesn't do much for engineering and programming matters. Vastly different area to be sure.

[GeorgeZ]

Yes, yes it's terrible, better go to ProFools on a Mac...

[demzer]

IT WAS PROVEN A HUNDRET TIMES NOW, THAT A DAW/SEQUENCER DOES NOT AFFECT THE SOUND!

You're wrong. And you look stupid because you've gone through the effort of making your text large and bold and you haven't even checked your spelling.

Of course a DAW influences the sound. Granted if you take one sample and load it into two different sequencers and render and then combine them, with all else being equal, they will cancel out when one of the files is phase reversed... As lots of people here seem to repeat endlessly, despite this being (apparently) common knowledge.

I assume then that there are a lot of people here making music by doing absolutely nothing except importing samples onto a timeline.

Clearly no one considers all the operations a sequencer is responsible for- there are more things inside of a DAW than a summing engine. Does every DAW have the same time stretch algorithm? The same bit depth and sample rate conversion algorithms? Do all sequencers interract with my audio interface, hardware and VSTs in the same way? Why does Reaper have a "per-device MIDI timestamp setting"... surely if every DAW is the same then the MIDI I send out of one host will be exactly the same as another that doesn't have this setting?

I believe all of these things affect the sound. I'm not going to say one is better than the other, but I will say there is a difference, perceivable or not.

[Carbonboy]

Clearly no one considers all the operations a sequencer is responsible for- there are more things inside of a DAW than a summing engine.

[...]

Does every DAW have the same time stretch algorithm?

[...]

I believe all of these things affect the sound. I'm not going to say one is better than the other, but I will say there is a difference, perceivable or not.

Well for stretching most DAWs use do the same technology, .e.g. Zplane Elastique (Cubase, FL Studio, Live, Reaper,...?)

BTW: Sound is the psychological dimension (perception) of high-frequency air pressure variation. It is impossible for something to affect the sound and there be no perceivable difference.

If it's imperceptible then it sounds the same.

My experience has been the things the artist/producer does with plugins, mixing and effects are more important than the DAW.

Carb

[ATS]

I see no prob.

A tip: Plan your mix so that when you DISABLE ALL fx on your master channel, the PEAKS won't go over -3dB.

Use the limiter/waveshaper on channels only to "shave off" the unwanted peaks - to control the levels.

This way, your mix will still have dynamics, but won't have so much "runaway" peaks.

Only after that, when you have your mix in order, add limiter and maximus to the master channel and make it loud how you want.


BTW - if you are new to purchase, read here:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 43#4220543

-------------------------------------------
Of course, if you don't have it already, you can purchase the FLS Signature bundle AND Harmless at once to save more.
.. or if you just prefer the code:
http://affiliate.image-line.com/HACEJC414

wow that is really bad advice (imo)

[stonestreet]

michi_mak:i pay respect to tony tony chopper for sticking with this thread that long - obviously his scientific point will never be accepted by some half taught musicians !!!

michi_mak:i was refering to your knowledge of digital audio and dsp - you said you rendered one file with 32 bits and the other one with 16 bits in order to compare them - so that is educated?!?

rifftrax:michi has a point, I'm afraid formal compositional/performance training really doesn't do much for engineering and programming matters. Vastly different area to be sure.

Gents
This sounds to me like simple communication issues person to person. Verbal communication deletes, generalizes and distorts what is being spoken about. After all verbal language is a digital medium. For example "half taught musicians," half taught at what subject, half taught by whom etc.? Simple deletion. Is sorohanro supposed to be a mind reader? How do you get from "half taught musician" to "refering to your knowledge of digital audio and dsp"

We also need to remember that this forum has posters from all nationalities. There will also be language translation differencies.

Have fun Mark

[sorohanro]

I see that this thread grew up a lot while I was sleeping. Well, maybe we will get at the bottom of this once for all and Tony/Gol will never have to get into this subject at all, just put a link in his forum signature

@ Tony/ Gol
Thank you for your patience on this subject. I know that when somebody attack your work (your baby, as I see myself for my music) it's quite hard to keep cool, still, you are here repeating our tests and answering and explaining.

@ Nucleon

Are you playing back the sax with the MuLabs sampler or as an audio track btw?

In both programs the trumpet loop was played by sampler. I tried my best to keep same approach and make the project as similar as I can.

i was refering to your knowledge of digital audio and dsp - you said you rendered one file with 32 bits and the other one with 16 bits in order to compare them - so that is educated?!?

Well, if you would bother to read, you will see the reason. Let me quote myself:

This I made to emulate exactly what a user can get for free (FL demo can render at the best quality settings but Mu.Lab demo/ free can not).

and again, later a bit:

Well, as I said, I tried to figure out from the point of view of a new user that can use only the demo versions, but I see what you mean. I will render both at the same quality.

So, the idea is, from the point of a new user that want to get a DAW and try the both demo/free versions, he will stick with the one which either sounds better or it's easier to work with...
What am I doing here ? If you didn't read two times before, you'll not read also now... so, go ahead, attack the person, not the idea.

Anyway, for people able to read, I was posting after the same midi file rendered at the same quality settings:

Finally. here are the files, both out of same midi, same plugins, same settings, no effects, both rendered at 32 bit float.
http://uploading.com/files/2f415m69/FL% ... test2.zip/

IT WAS PROVEN A HUNDRET TIMES NAO, THAT A DAW/SEQUENCER DOES NOT AFFECT ZE SOUND!

Here, I fixed it for you


Again @ Tony/ Gol
So, maybe I am wrong and all DAWs are same thing and the only difference is the interface, but why the clean render in FL is several decibels quieter ?
Clearly I'm not the only person who notice this and probably that's why you have this "urban mith" that FL sounds different than the other DAWs.

Would a setting like "automatic normalizing" solve the issue ?

[mauseoleum]

I see no prob.

A tip: Plan your mix so that when you DISABLE ALL fx on your master channel, the PEAKS won't go over -3dB.

Use the limiter/waveshaper on channels only to "shave off" the unwanted peaks - to control the levels.

This way, your mix will still have dynamics, but won't have so much "runaway" peaks.

Only after that, when you have your mix in order, add limiter and maximus to the master channel and make it loud how you want.


BTW - if you are new to purchase, read here:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 43#4220543

-------------------------------------------
Of course, if you don't have it already, you can purchase the FLS Signature bundle AND Harmless at once to save more.
.. or if you just prefer the code:
http://affiliate.image-line.com/HACEJC414

wow that is really bad advice (imo)

Could you elaborate?
Not trying to be too smart, but I have used this method over years in at least four different hosts, watched others use similar method, and it works.

However, I'm always eager to learn a better one.

So - could you elaborate?

[Nokenoku]

Does every DAW have the same time stretch algorithm? The same bit depth and sample rate conversion algorithms? Do all sequencers interract with my audio interface, hardware and VSTs in the same way? Why does Reaper have a "per-device MIDI timestamp setting"... surely if every DAW is the same then the MIDI I send out of one host will be exactly the same as another that doesn't have this setting?

I believe all of these things affect the sound. I'm not going to say one is better than the other, but I will say there is a difference, perceivable or not.

1. We are not talking about stretching here.
2. We are not talking of SRC here (FLStudio has one of the best btw.).
3. Sequencers interact with drivers, not with the hardware itself. And then this totally does not matter for rendering.
4. VST is a standard, so yes: Every sequencer interracts with it the same way. If there are bugs, you'll usually hear them immediatly.
5. I don't know Reaper, and I don't know what this option is, but I doubt it has anything to do with this discussion.

What you believe doesn't matter. I know for a fact, that you can get the same sound in every DAW. I made tests, a lot of other users made tests .. and beside that it's common sense (looking at it from a technical side).
It looks btw stupid to talk about things, you don't have a clue about. So you might just want to stop it right now.

There are different panning-laws, different output-levels of VSTi-plugins, different presettings of any kind, etc. in different sequencers. But those are all things, where you have still 100% influence as a user to tweak the settings to your likings.

[sorohanro]

I'm not a moderator but I ask you people to calm down a bit.
It is very annoying for me as a forum user to see people attacking people instead of discussing ideas and concepts.
Please, don't act like here's the kindergarten:
"You dont liek my drowing, you is ugly and your mama fat"

[demzer]

1. We are not talking about stretching here.

Sorry Nokenoku, I was obviously responding the post I quoted directly. As you obviously couldn't figure this out for yourself I thought I'd spell it out for you- here you go:

The person I quoted said that there is no difference between DAWs. The point I was making is that while there may only be minute differences in the summing mixer (if any), that doesn't mean all DAWs are equal.

2. We are not talking of SRC here (FLStudio has one of the best btw.)

See above. Incidently if FLStudio has a "better" SRC then that would mean it is... different, yes?

3. Sequencers interact with drivers, not with the hardware itself. And then this totally does not matter for rendering.

*shrug*

4. VST is a standard, so yes: Every sequencer interracts with it the same way. If there are bugs, you'll usually hear them immediatly.

In english, perhaps? Also, as far as I'm aware, not all sequencers support the same VST standard...

5. I don't know Reaper, and I don't know what this option is, but I doubt it has anything to do with this discussion.

*sigh*

Some people claim all sequencers are the same- this has been said countless times in this thread and therefore is part of the "discussion". By pointing out that sequencers handle MIDI differently to others I am re-enforcing my opinion- an opinion you obviously agree with because you've already pointed out that when FLStudio converts files between different sample rates it does it differently to others...

What you believe doesn't matter. I know for a fact, that you can get the same sound in every DAW. I made tests, a lot of other users made tests .. and beside that it's common sense (looking at it from a technical side).

I'm sure you have son.

It looks btw stupid to talk about things, you don't have a clue about. So you might just want to stop it right now.

It looks btw stupid that you can't even type a proper sentence, and then insult someone... all the while agreeing with their arguments.

There are different panning-laws, different output-levels of VSTi-plugins, different presettings of any kind, etc. in different sequencers. But those are all things, where you have still 100% influence as a user to tweak the settings to your likings.

I don't even know what some of those things are, for example: "presettings of any kind, etc.". I'm not sure you do either.

Go back to bed... You might want to start paying attention in your 3rd grade english classes.

Moving on...

Well for stretching most DAWs use do the same technology, .e.g. Zplane Elastique (Cubase, FL Studio, Live, Reaper,...?)

I have two options in Cubase 5 for time stretching- MPEX 4 and Realtime. If they both use Zplane Elastique (whatever that is- I've never heard of it) then why are they different? Does FLStudio, Live and Reaper all have the MPEX4 algorithim?

BTW: Sound is the psychological dimension (perception) of high-frequency air pressure variation. It is impossible for something to affect the sound and there be no perceivable difference.

I'm not sure that's correct either. I wouldn't say sound is a "psychological dimension"- although the bit about it being a variation in sound pressure sounds right.

It is not impossible for something to affect sound and there be no perceivable difference. Not everyone has golden ears . I'm pretty sure a couple of years ago one of the engineers at Abelton did test the summing engines of all the DAWs on the market and said there were differences- but nobody would notice them. There was a huge war/thread on KvR about it, which I can't be bothered bringing up.

My experience has been the things the artist/producer does with plugins, mixing and effects are more important than the DAW.

Same here. But it's still fun arguing about it

[sorohanro]

Ok people, to sum all discussion, here, everything condensed:

1 - All DAWs are the same but there are differences between them.
2 - They don't do any coloration to the sound and all sound the same, but some have a better sound then the others because they have the best algorithm.

[mauseoleum]

Fwiw, I never had a problem getting a fat sound out of FL.
The "secret" is called ReaComp.

@ GOL: study the ReaComp! 64x oversampling and sidechain hipass @ 120-150Hz = big sound.