Zen - classification

[ZombyWoof]

Would it also be possible to add preset-level comments like Zebra allows?
The author could include tips on usage here. A full-text search across the comments and tags in the database could also be of help.

Another possibility could be user-added links to demos using the preset. This could also be helpful when payware patches come on line.

[Big Tick]

It would definitely be an improvement, BUT I would still like to be able find patches by typing in relevant key words and searching a global database of all tags attached to all patches, rather than filtering from a fixed list of tags.

Well I forgot to say that the fulltext search could do exactly that, also search in the list of all user-defined tags.

Also - my user tags list has grown to a fair size already, and I can see that continuing. I actually think it would be nice to be able to just add as many tags as I want to any one patch, making new tags up as and when I think I need them, rather than have to limit myself to choosing from my fixed list. So it seems that some means of flexible tag management is what's called for.

Yes. That's exactly what I had in mind.

[Big Tick]

Would it also be possible to add preset-level comments like Zebra allows?
The author could include tips on usage here. A full-text search across the comments and tags in the database could also be of help.

Yes, I've thought about this - the thing is, the comments are already in the zebra preset, and everybody hates to have to do something twice. So it would be better if the plugin would send preset-level comments to Zen. This will require a user-specific extension to the vst standard, and of course, plugin authors will need to support it.

Another possibility could be user-added links to demos using the preset. This could also be helpful when payware patches come on line.

That's the nice thing about online, community-based applications: the sky's the limit, isn't it ?

[hakey]

That's exactly what I had in mind.

[hakey]

I don't know what you have in mind for tag management, but if Category and Timbre stay (I think they make perfectly logical divisions), would it be possible to have another division for descriptors that don't naturally fall under either heading?

I'm thinking of words that might suggest genre (I've just added an Acid tag to Timbres), usage, feel, time signature, or just anything that doesn't quite fit anywhere else.

Perhaps that's what you intended for 'Tags', but that feels to me more a 'housekeeping' section?

[Big Tick]

I was thinking of letting users create their own tags groups and organization.

[hakey]

I was thinking of letting users create their own tags groups and organization.

That'd be good.

[asseca]

Would it also be possible to add preset-level comments like Zebra allows?
The author could include tips on usage here. A full-text search across the comments and tags in the database could also be of help.

Yes, I've thought about this - the thing is, the comments are already in the zebra preset, and everybody hates to have to do something twice. So it would be better if the plugin would send preset-level comments to Zen. This will require a user-specific extension to the vst standard, and of course, plugin authors will need to support it.

I suspect not all plugin authors would or can support this, also it would be nice to still use "abandoned" plugins and have some comments per preset.

Maybe it would be desirable to include a preset-level comments field, which can either be filled in by the user or filled in by this new VST-extension

Regarding "a user-specific extension to the vst standard":
It is maybe a good time to think seriously about a good VST2.x extension which would have the consensus of many host and plugin developers that would include e.g. sample-accurate parameter automation, some or all of Reaper's extensions, the ZEN extensions, and some developers' extensions ...

[asseca]

Here is some thoughts I had mainly for the simple sounds (i.e. not including the difficult "exotic and abstract" atmospheres, evolvers etc.)
Type, i.e. sounds like: (ac=Acoustic, el=Electric/Electronic/PM, an=AnalogSynth, di=DigitalSynth/VA/PM, so=SoftSynth/VA/PM)

Categories, i.e. sounds like:
PNO = Piano (ac/el/sy): Grand, Upright, HonkyTonk, Pianoforte, Harpsichord, Clavinet
GTR = Guitar (ac/el/sy): Fretless, Fingered, Picked, Plucked, Slap, Nylon, Steel, Jazz, Harmonics
ORG = Organ (ac/el/sy): Drawbar, Rock, Church, Reed, Accordion, Harmonica, Bandoneon
BAS = Bass (ac/el/sy): Fretless, Upright, SubBass, BaseLine, Fingered, Picked, Plucked, Slap
CHR = Chromatic Percussion/Mallet (ac/el/sy): Celesta, Glockenspiel, MusicBox, Vibraphone, Marimba, Xylophone, Bells, TubularBells, TinkleBell, Dulcimer, Kalimba, Santur, Agogo, SteelDrums, Gong, Chime
PLK = Plucked String (ac/el/sy): Banjo, Mandolin, Harp, Sitar, Koto, Shamisen, Cimbalom
BRS = Brass (ac/el/sy): Trumpet, Trombone, Tuba, FrenchHorn
WND = Wind (ac/el/sy): Sax, Oboe, EnglishHorn, Bassoon, Clarinet, Melodica, Piccolo, Flute, PanFlute, ConcertFlute, AiryFlute, Didgeridoo, Recorder, BottleBlow, Shakuhachi, Whistle, Ocarina, BagPipe, Shanai
BOW = Bowed String (ac/el/sy): Violin, Viola, Cello, DoubleBCass, Fiddle
DRM = Drum/Achromatic Percussion (ac/el/sy): DrumKit, BassKick, Snare, OpenHiHat, ClosedHiHat, Ride, Tom, Cymbal, WoodBlock, Conga, Taiko, DrumLoop, DrumPattern, SlicedLoop, PercKit, Clap, Bongo, Wooden, Shaker, SmalMetal, PercLoop
SFX = Effects (ac/el/sy): Noise, Metal, Animal, Machines, Applause, Shots, Nature, Water, Vinyl
VOC = Vocal (ac/el/sy): MaleChoir, FemaleChoir, BoyChoir, MixedChoir, MaleSolo, FemaleSolo, BoySolo, Vocoded
ENS = Ensemble (ac/el/sy): String, Brass, Wind, Orchestral, TremoloStrings
PAD = Pad (ac/el/sy): default = "long"
LED = Lead (ac/el/sy): default = "short"
SYN = Other Synth (ac/el/sy):

Mode:
Classic, Mono, Chord, Glide, Dry, SlowAttack, LongRelease, Percussive, Bright, Soft, Thin, Deep, Huge, Noisy, Dirty, Mute, Loop, Hit, Swell, Evolve, Layered(=ENS?)

examples:
el+BAS+GTR+PCK = Electric-sampled Picked Bass Guitar
ac+ENS+STR = Acoustic-sampled String Ensemble
ac+VOI+ENS = Acoustic-sampled Orchestral Hit
ac+ENS+STR = Acoustic-sampled Tremolo Strings
an+LED = Moog synth


Open question:
If there is a huge number of custom tags, (which of course could be ideal for personal use and some advanced users), how useful would such a tagging system be for the "normal" users ...

[ZombyWoof]

EDIT: accidental post

[hakey]

PNO = Piano (ac/el/sy): Grand, Upright, HonkyTonk, Pianoforte, Harpsichord, Clavinet

You may consider harpsichords and clavinets a sub set of 'Piano', but I most certainly don't! In fact, I could go through your list and pick out many instances where your classification doesn't work *for me*. Not to say that it's 'wrong', rather we all have our own subjective view on how such a classification should be built.

And this is the reason why Tick is now moving towards a flexible, completely user-definable tagging system.

[aMUSEd]

PNO = Piano (ac/el/sy): Grand, Upright, HonkyTonk, Pianoforte, Harpsichord, Clavinet

You may consider harpsichords and clavinets a sub set of 'Piano', but I most certainly don't! And this is the reason why Tick is now moving towards a flexible, completely user-definable tagging system.

Well "keys" is the usual convention for them all

The problem with too much flexibility is if you go too far tags only have meaning to one person - the tagger and the whole idea of tagging being in the cloud becomes meaningless. I think you still need some sort of consensus regarding tags and to stick to it for this to work

[hakey]

The problem with too much flexibility is if you go too far tags only have meaning to one person - the tagger and the whole idea of tagging being in the cloud becomes meaningless. I think you still need some sort of consensus regarding tags and to stick to it for this to work

I disagree. I don't see how cloud tagging would 'become meaningless'.

I actually find a fixed tag system becomes meaningless *to me* - ie. where the fixed tags don't gel with my own system. Uploading and tagging my own patches I've found the present fixed system to be severely wanting - it's clunky, inflexible and inefficient.

But I don't see why we couldn't have both some kind of a fixed tag system, if such is really necessary, plus the ability for users to add as many tags to a patch as the want and for users to search by tag, or to view the tag cloud associated with a given patch.

I find the idea and possibilities of flexible cloud tagging and searching quite exciting, a fixed classification system much less so!

[aMUSEd]

The problem with too much flexibility is if you go too far tags only have meaning to one person - the tagger and the whole idea of tagging being in the cloud becomes meaningless. I think you still need some sort of consensus regarding tags and to stick to it for this to work

I disagree. I don't see how cloud tagging would 'become meaningless'.

I actually find a fixed tag system becomes meaningless *to me* - ie. where the fixed tags don't gel with my own system. Uploading and tagging my own patches I've found the present fixed system to be severely wanting - it's clunky, inflexible and inefficient.

Yes but if tags are entirely user defined no system will gel with mine - in fact there will be no system and I might as well organise everything myself. I'm not arguing for completely rigid tags either - I just think we need a balance between the two.

[hakey]

I just think we need a balance between the two.

...yes, just have both, as I said?

Maybe there could be something like a dropdown hierarchical list of suggested tags, *as well as* the ability to create and organize our own tags? All tags would 'travel' with the patch in its cloud, which would be visible to and searchable by all users.

Personally, I would strongly resist being forced to classify my patches according to a fixed system. Where the fixed system didn't agree with my personal system, I would undoubtedly find it so frustrating as to put me off using Zen altogether. I was getting to that point with Zen in its current incarnation - it was only Tick's decision to rethink things that brought me back on board.