Zen

[hakey]

who is to say that UserA made good presets, and UserB made bad ones?

Me!

[Kriminal]

i thought you wanted as many as you could get...'hopefully every vst will be included' or something like that...?

His aim is to include as many as possible, but he wants to test a little with each new inclusion to be able to keep an eye on stable performance with each new VSTi that's added. I have quite a list of plugins to request for inclusion (at least the ones I use) but I see no problem when they get included one at the time over a period of time.

the problem i see is, no-one uses the same stuff, so most ppl prob cant test anything until they have a bigger list in the database



so, if im understanding you correctly, i need a designer key to get my own presets into the database? (assuming it stops crashing first of course)

[hakey]

the problem i see is, no-one uses the same stuff, so most ppl prob cant test anything until they have a bigger list in the database

An obvious tautology, but a lot of people use the really popular plugins - Zebra, ACE, Synth1, Massive etc. Many people will own more than one.

And anyway Tick has said that the eventual aim is to cover as many plugins as possible.

so, if im understanding you correctly, i need a designer key to get my own presets into the database?

Yes - that is to upload them to the global database, where they can be distributed amongst all users. You can import your own patches into your local database without a key.

[crimsonwarlock]

OK guys, just cool it in the 'quality control' statement....

I just meant: personal quality control from the designers pov. What I maybe should have added is that when you upload a preset, you loose control over it. So if you upload just anything that comes up sound-wise then later on you might regret putting certain patches online. In this regard ZEN completely follows what is being said about the internet time and time again: what goes on the internet, stays on the internet

I was just talking from my own pov that I'm pretty cautious before hitting that upload button on a patch

Quality control on the user side is something that will sort itself: someone uses the presets he likes and simply ignores the ones that are garbage (to him personally). However, if there is a lot of REAL garbage being uploaded to the database then a user might have to plow through a lot of unwanted stuff to find the few real good ones.

Having said that, Tick gave me a designer key the moment I asked for it. I'm happy he did but there is also a possible problem with that; if anyone can get a designer key without any credibility then the chance is that people who just dabble a bit with a plugin start uploading presets that are, let's say, sub-standard. Think about the preset-generator in Oatmeal; with that everyone thinks he can be a sound designer (tbh I already have seen several Oatmeal banks that are obviously made by ONLY clicking that generate-button).

I do have some credibility in the community, been around a decade or so and worked with many devs and companies (mainly beta-testing) but I never released any of my patches before. So there is no way to know if I'm just a dabbler or not (I'm not btw, have been programming my own sounds for 30 years now ). In contrast Krim has released patches for many synths (I have several of his banks myself, I do use presets as well).

[aMUSEd]

Can we have TripleCheese support please (and Uhbik when we get an fx version)

ta

[crimsonwarlock]

Question to Tick:

While I'm thinking about Krim's patches I see a possible problem: If I locally add his patches to my database, what happens when Krim starts adding his own patches to the shared database and they get downloaded. You said that you can't add a preset twice to prevent double entries, so how is this handled?

[Kriminal]

Question to Tick:

While I'm thinking about Krim's patches I see a possible problem: If I locally add his patches to my database, what happens when Krim starts adding his own patches to the shared database and they get downloaded. You said that you can't add a preset twice to prevent double entries, so how is this handled?

TBH, most of my presets are pretty amateur, until recently (last 2 years i'd say) i didnt really take it that seriously, just dabbling...

so, with regards to you quandry, i would only be uploading new presets that no-one has had before, so not a problem

[crimsonwarlock]

TBH, most of my presets are pretty amateur, until recently (last 2 years i'd say) i didnt really take it that seriously, just dabbling...

so, with regards to you quandry, i would only be uploading new presets that no-one has had before, so not a problem

There's still some pretty good stuff you made floating around

However regardless, the possible conflict might arise between patches added to the global database AFTER someone has put them in his/hers personal database.

[hakey]

OK guys, just cool it in the 'quality control' statement....

Guys? Krim got his knickers slightly in a twist ("totally unacceptable!"), but I thought my response was fairly reasonable.

if there is a lot of REAL garbage being uploaded to the database then a user might have to plow through a lot of unwanted stuff to find the few real good ones.

Unfortunately it's inevitable that much of the content will, from any one user's subjective view, be garbage.

And Synth1 being the obvious example - 9000 odd patches, a fair number of nice, well balanced, usable or interesting patches, but a good deal more *ahem* 'less good' patches amongst them.

There's not much you can do about that. As I said, an Ignore tag to hide unwanted patches, plus filtering by user rating (of patches, patchbanks, authors etc), seem to me practical ways for sorting subjectively good from subjectively bad.

if anyone can get a designer key without any credibility then the chance is that people who just dabble a bit with a plugin start uploading presets that are, let's say, sub-standard.

But then the problem becomes where do you set the bar for who qualifies as a credible sound designer? I'm a dabbler, I don't really have any official credentials to submit, but I think I might be able to make a modest positive contribution. I'm sure that there's many like me.

That said, a potential problem that might arise where a lot of keys are given out indiscriminately is that of people uploading other author's patches without their permission. No doubt Tick has made contingency plans for this - I guess banning the offending user and removing all of their uploads. Perhaps there should be an explicit rule stating that author's can only upload their own patches (and an author/uploader tag automatically be appended at upload)?

[crimsonwarlock]

OK guys, just cool it in the 'quality control' statement....

Guys? Krim got his knickers slightly in a twist ("totally unacceptable!"), but I thought my response was fairly reasonable.

OK, I forgot to put a smiley with that sentence, so here you have two

if there is a lot of REAL garbage being uploaded to the database then a user might have to plow through a lot of unwanted stuff to find the few real good ones.

Unfortunately it's inevitable that much of the content will, from any one user's subjective view, be garbage.

And Synth1 being the obvious example - 9000 odd patches, a fair number of nice, well balanced, usable or interesting patches, but a good deal more *ahem* 'less good' patches amongst them.

There's not much you can do about that. As I said, an Ignore tag to hide unwanted patches, plus filtering by user rating (of patches, patchbanks, authors etc), seem to me practical ways for sorting subjectively good from subjectively bad.

Ah, good suggestions.

if anyone can get a designer key without any credibility then the chance is that people who just dabble a bit with a plugin start uploading presets that are, let's say, sub-standard.

But then the problem becomes where do you set the bar for who qualifies as a credible sound designer? I'm a dabbler, I don't really have any official credentials to submit, but I think I might be able to make a modest positive contribution. I'm sure that there's many like me.

Ahum, I think your patches qualify quite a bit above 'dabbling'

Perhaps there should be an explicit rule stating that author's can only upload their own patches (and an author/uploader tag automatically be appended at upload)?

Problem with that is that we can not get 'legacy banks' (like those from TC, may he RIP) into the system. I'm already discussing with Tick to help him getting such banks into ZEN and properly tagged. I think it's also important to get these banks into ZEN to prevent other 'dabblers' to upload those patches as if they are theirs.

[hakey]

I'm already discussing with Tick to help him getting such banks into ZEN and properly tagged. I think it's also important to get these banks into ZEN to prevent other 'dabblers' to upload those patches as if they are theirs.

Perhaps there could be something like administrator level access for a few trusted uploaders like yourself, who would be allowed to upload other author's patches only where it is appropriate (legacy banks and the like)?

(and thanks for that nice comment! )

[Big Tick]

While I'm thinking about Krim's patches I see a possible problem: If I locally add his patches to my database, what happens when Krim starts adding his own patches to the shared database and they get downloaded. You said that you can't add a preset twice to prevent double entries, so how is this handled?

When your Zen downloads Krim's public preset, it detects that it is a duplicate of a local preset. Any tags you had set for the local preset are applied to the public one, and then the local preset is removed.

Duplicate detection is based on a CRC of the preset data. Some synths, unfortunately, save random or user-specific data along with the preset. So in this case, dupe detection won't work, and you'll have both presets in your database.

[Big Tick]

so, if im understanding you correctly, i need a designer key to get my own presets into the database? (assuming it stops crashing first of course)

Only if you want to publish them and share them with others.

a potential problem that might arise where a lot of keys are given out indiscriminately is that of people uploading other author's patches without their permission. No doubt Tick has made contingency plans for this - I guess banning the offending user and removing all of their uploads.

I only give keys to people I know, or people who have already been contributing presets to the community. So no dabblers here.
Also, anyone with a designer key can import, say, Tim Conrardy's presets and tag them as his. But, believe me, at some point (and probably very quickly) someone will notice.

No doubt Tick has made contingency plans for this - I guess banning the offending user and removing all of their uploads.

Exactly. The last thing I (we all) need is issues with people uploading illegal content.

[hakey]

A question:

Will it be possible for an author to limit access to a given patch/patchbank to certain users?

[Big Tick]

Will it be possible for an author to limit access to a given patch/patchbank to certain users?

Yes, this would make sense as a platform with "social" features: you could have public groups, private groups, and decide which groups are allowed to download which presets. At the moment, though, there is only 1 group: all users