What scale/mode is this?

[RandolphCarter]

Another music theory noob question


Let's say I got a chord progression which goes like:


D# F# C# F / F# A# D# / D# F# C# F / C# F# D (with A and F coming as embellishement for this last chord).


Which scale am I on? I picked up my theory book and I thought I was using the Byzantine scale, but looks like it doesn't really fit the notes I listed...


I want to know which scale am I on because it sounds nice to my ears, but when I want to write a melody for it I don't want to just throw random notes above the chords, neither use only the notes in the chords, I want to know why X note sounds good (because it's the seventh of the scale, etc)...



Tanks a lot in advance, people!

[jancivil]

instead of throwing you the fish, I'll try to teach you to fish.

first, spell the chords out >assuming major quality<:
D# Fx A#
F# A# C#
C# E# G#
F A C
A# Cx E#
D F# A

now make a row:
D# E# (or 'F') F# Fx (or G) G# A A# C C#

now, you may notice redundant letter names with the modifier '#'
This should appear to you as somewhat problematic, if you've seen lists of scales, they usually don't do this.
(a scale of over seven notes, well, yes)

This suggests that you are familiar with #s only, as probably someone who's familiarity is limited to a sequencer application that by default doesn't know the difference. A spelling difference. If one is to proceed with a basis in scales, one must learn about spelling.

There are 'x's' in there, double sharps, because a triad, such as your 'chords' most probably are, is spelled by thirds. (It means some translation work for someone else to understand you where you fail to do this. The machine knows what note it is, I know what note it is by sight, but the chord isn't properly described where spelled incorrectly)

I will visually simplify this list of signs by making this a flat area (I'm basing it on [D#] Eb because of the frequent occurrence of):
Eb F F# (or Gb) G Ab A Bb C Db

There are nine tones. Unusual, and for a noob, kinda exotic. I would guess that a couple of these are in-between or alternate notes.

Let's reduce, to see a 7-note row out of this:
Eb F G Ab Bb C Db

That's a mixolydian mode, tonic = Eb. Similar to major, but with the exception of a flatted 7.

F# or Gb resembles a blues third when posed beside a G natural.

A (or Bbb) in between Ab and Bb is a sharp 4 or flat 5. Also a 'blues' kind of phenomenon.

that's your content, in terms of scale theory.

Do you follow this?

[RandolphCarter]

Hi Jancivil, thanks for your post, very useful indeed.


I didn't try to make only "triads", in fact I tried to get some seventh and ninth chords in there.

I'm familiar with some music theory, but you're right in saying that I transcribed the notes from the sequencer, and hence, wrote only sharps and not flat notes.


What is the difference between spelling a scale with a sharp note or it's (supposedly) enharmonic equivalent flat note, or, like you used, a double flat versus the natural enharmonic (Bbb, instead of using A)?



Is the key in a mixolydian mode with some chromaticism (those blues notes) thrown in?

[jancivil]

this "spelling" is about obtaining congruence with "a b c e f g", consecutive letter names, and keeping it simple as possible. (In 'chromatic harmony' there will ultimately be some ambiguities but that I think will exceed this lesson.)

for instance, Bb major and never "A# major". that latter would read: A# B# Cx D# E# Fx Gx and tbh I wouldn't even be able to tell you what to do for a key signature in this case, 4 sharps and 3 double sharps? No one wants that... As opposed to Bb C D Eb F G A, two flats in the sig.

I think what you have is most probably mixolydian with two extras, typical blue note alternates. I think seventh chords etc which work well there will pretty much have congruence with my theory. "Key" in such a case as modes can have more than one implication. The tonic is Eb, so to a rocker, you may say 'in Eb' but a classical person may prefer it by a key signature, which will be 4 flats, which they might like to call 'Ab', IE: key sig of Ab major. I will say mixolydian on Eb to avoid problems.

Just a heads up, scale names such as 'byzantine' are sometimes somebody reaching for a name out of history that doesn't have too much to do with reality. I've been around awhile and I saw that in a booklet once, but I'd have to look it up to have any idea of what they're trying to say.




I bet a guitarist came up with that one.

[jancivil]

Oh, as per spelling chords correctly, these are triads and must be spelled by thirds, which simply skips a letter name. Bb Db F, instead of Bb C# F.

I remember now, that byzantine scale was in a guitar booklet of exotic (maybe 'synthetic') scales .

[Nystul]

Hmmm, it looks more like Eb (or D#) minor to me. I can't see the Gb as a blue note when it appears in every chord and the G natural appears only in jan's reply. The last chord is a whole different ball of yarn. Your melody has to follow what is going on with that chord and not just blindly play notes from the scale.

[jancivil]

Well, I listed the chords as major triads exclusively, the OP didn't correct me on it...
The primary chord appears to be D# / Eb.

there are approximately as many 'Gb' chords as 'Eb' chords. The information I have gets me to take Eb major as the primary chord. I am hard-pressed to decide on 'minor key', given that.

Seems ambiguous; and I am 100% confident that 9 note set of tones applies, whatever you call it. Which isn't so important in practice.

[jancivil]

Hmmm, it looks more like Eb (or D#) minor to me. I can't see the Gb as a blue note when it appears in every chord and the G natural appears only in jan's reply.

Then you have a problem with the visual. I don't think that you do.

D# F# C# F / F# A# D# / D# F# C# F / C# F# D

I assumed major quality, and have not seen otherwise in the OP's response. These D#s are at the start of bars 1 and 3. Playing through them I do not get 'minor key'. I get an obvious tension between major/minor 3.

Now since you must to correct me, I suggest you please demonstrate how there are no Gs.

As per what to do with this information... I would basically take a blues-derived approach, and given the turnaround in major, I call that little ambiguity a 'blues third'. I just played some leads over it. Yep. That's what happened. So, what did I give for a scale? A blues scale?

Eb F F# G Ab A Bb C C# D.

I, bIII, bVII, V of V, V, I. "Minor", I doubt it. OTOH, obviously if the I is indeed 'i', it switches from natural minor to functional minor.


to the OP, to reinforce what I indicate per 'spelling': if you extend the Eb triad to the #11th, you call it 'A'.
Eb G Bb Db F A, is an Eb(7)9 #11.
If (you went all jazzbo at some point, and) you flatted the fifth, the most correct spelling will be: Eb G Bbb Db. "Eb7 b5".

This particular distinction doesn't much matter in everyday parlance (only a classical person will say anything). For instance, in jazz 'theory', that Eb7 b5 chord can easily be thought of as A7 b5, and function, say, to key of D. If that were to occur in say a Wagner score, it might even be spelled as though a Bbb7 (elsewhere not so much).

It's important to understand however, that something such as 'D# G Bb C#' is mixed up.

By thirds: Eb G Bb Db F A C; logically your enharmonic gets you D# Fx A# C# E# Gx B#.

[jancivil]

Where you have chords that are 'extra' to the normative 'key', such as that F, the thing to do generally in a melody or lead will be to adhere to chord tones when in doubt.

as far as, if you need to practice a scale that's useful, you have an exhaustive 9 note set now. These notes will be under your fingers preparing you for these choices.

[Nystul]

Well my interpretation of the original post was that D# F# C# F is a four note voicing of one chord (as spelled in a sequencer). Your interpretation is that it is a sequence of four major chords in succession. Operating on these different assumptions would lead to very different conclusions regarding what scales to use.

[RandolphCarter]

Yes, it was a four note voicing of chords (as in, first bar: four note chord, second bar, triad, etc).

That's why I was saying I tried to put in a ninth in there. I wrote the voicings just in case I mispelt the chord names

[jancivil]

and you didn't see that I, in my first reply, had seen something completely different than your meaning?

I indicated at the beginning that I assumed these as all major quality triads. Your answer didn't help me understand any different.

Your last chord has the Maj 7th in the bass and no fifth, for one example. Pardon me for reading what's characterized as a noob post as a lot simpler than this somewhat unusual content. When someone posts 'I got a chord progression' and lists single notes...

My version is simple rock music with the exception of the ending (strangely enough, very consistent and something that made sense).

You listed a series of pitches and asked for a scale name other than byzantine and I gave you a music lesson.

D# F F# A# C# D =
Eb F Gb Bb Db (and a 'foreign' note D).

chords = Ebm9, Ebm, Ebm9, DM7/C# bass. Not much here to where I'd guess 'chord progression' . Until the last chord, there is no change in harmony, just voicing. The last chord is peculiar as hell.

This was all abstract information and my brain has to make sense of it. What you actually meant makes little sense to me in the abstract.

with only that information you have a certain pentatonic scale (which will get you a lot of different names from different people).

You seem intelligent enough to fill in the blanks for yourself as far as making music. Naming is a secondary concern at best.

Please be more clear in future when asking people to work for you for nothing.

[RandolphCarter]

I did see that your explanation didn't fit what I posted. However, as I look up to you because I consider myself quite ignorant when compared to you in terms of musical theory and harmony, I thought I was doing something wrong, either in nomenclature, listing of voices, or else (that's the reason, when I read you saying "...such as your triads most probably are", I replied "I tried to add some seventh and ninth chords there).
So that's the reason I thought "Wow, I must be doing something wrong, glad this guy pointed out that this isn't as I thought".

I'm sorry that I didn't explain myself properly. However, understand that it wasn't my intention, I didn't want you to "work for nothing".

[lockheart]

Another music theory noob question


Let's say I got a chord progression which goes like:


D# F# C# F / F# A# D# / D# F# C# F / C# F# D (with A and F coming as embellishement for this last chord).


Which scale am I on? I picked up my theory book and I thought I was using the Byzantine scale, but looks like it doesn't really fit the notes I listed...

That is the Bypathian minor mode.