I have an issue with sub-bass. I recently produced this song and some of the feedback was that there was 'no real bass' to the song which is true, even though the main element of the song is the bassline. I thought the same thing myself and even thought I should put sub-bass in there but... I have no idea what I am doing...
My questions are. Should my sub bass be a riff? Should it follow my bass riff? Ive heard square waves are good for sub-bass. How bout sine and saw-tooth. How do I mix Sub-bass.. What am I listening for?
P.S. Hear is the song I am talking about:
http://soundcloud.com/pgritz/gritzildin ... old-master
Sub- bass
-
- KVRist
- 125 posts since 6 Oct, 2010
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 125 posts since 6 Oct, 2010
Hey guys. I guess I am having problems in identifying the difference between sub bass and bass. And some people are saying that there isnt even any bass in this song at all. How do you differentiate bass from sub bass?
-
- KVRian
- 1084 posts since 12 Sep, 2008 from Your basement
Hey nice rhythm programming!gritzildino wrote:Hey guys. I guess I am having problems in identifying the difference between sub bass and bass. And some people are saying that there isnt even any bass in this song at all. How do you differentiate bass from sub bass?
I heard a persistent bassline, but as an experiment you should double it at an octave below during all sections exept your breaks. This could help your groove.
-
- KVRian
- 503 posts since 1 Jun, 2008
there may be overlap between sub bass and regular bass, just depends on how low your normal bass goes (and if they do overlap in frequency then u need to make sure that they dont overlap in time - i.e. they dont fall on the same beat - otherwise its gonna be a mess).
sub bass might (roughly) be defined as being a pure sinewave (not square) at frequencies lower than 80/90hZ. if you want, u can just make it follow the other bassline, to give that weight, but you'll have to carefully EQ both basslines (and perhaps compress them together) so that they dont fall in conflicting frequencies.
otherwise you can make your sub bass play something totally different to the other bassline (in which case, the bassline isnt really a bassline is it, as it has no bass...so u might just call it a riff instead), u could have your main riff/bassline quite busy and funky, while the sub just adds some impact, weight and boom to certain points. in this case if any of the notes fall at the same time then you'll also have to carefully EQ so that there are no overlapping frequncies between them, otherwise, if they never coincide on the same beat, then you can allow your riff/bassline to fall quite low (down to 90 or 80hZ, say) and you sub bass to go quite high (touching 100 or 110).
hope that all makes some sense. battery is dead now anyway, so if it doesnt you'll have to wait for soemone more literate and patient than me to explain it better. bye...
sub bass might (roughly) be defined as being a pure sinewave (not square) at frequencies lower than 80/90hZ. if you want, u can just make it follow the other bassline, to give that weight, but you'll have to carefully EQ both basslines (and perhaps compress them together) so that they dont fall in conflicting frequencies.
otherwise you can make your sub bass play something totally different to the other bassline (in which case, the bassline isnt really a bassline is it, as it has no bass...so u might just call it a riff instead), u could have your main riff/bassline quite busy and funky, while the sub just adds some impact, weight and boom to certain points. in this case if any of the notes fall at the same time then you'll also have to carefully EQ so that there are no overlapping frequncies between them, otherwise, if they never coincide on the same beat, then you can allow your riff/bassline to fall quite low (down to 90 or 80hZ, say) and you sub bass to go quite high (touching 100 or 110).
hope that all makes some sense. battery is dead now anyway, so if it doesnt you'll have to wait for soemone more literate and patient than me to explain it better. bye...
Signature blocked until somebody convinces me they aren't utterly pointless
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 125 posts since 6 Oct, 2010
Wow. Yes. This is pretty much just what I was looking for. Thanks.
I always hear people saying that the bass/sub bass needs to work well with the kick. I think mostly the mean that the key of each compliment each other. Or do they mean that the bass/sub bass should be on a different beat than the kick? Ex: Kick and bass should not play at the same time.
I always hear people saying that the bass/sub bass needs to work well with the kick. I think mostly the mean that the key of each compliment each other. Or do they mean that the bass/sub bass should be on a different beat than the kick? Ex: Kick and bass should not play at the same time.
-
- KVRist
- 441 posts since 30 Apr, 2007
Your bass riff seems to me to be in about the same sort of frequency space and tonal character as the bass riff in Billy Jean. And then you have the big kick to go with it. Somehow I don't think anyone has ever told Quincy Jones that Billy Jean has no bass line! I'm not seeing a problem, but then I don't really listen to the techno or whatever they call it these days. 
It would be easy enough to layer in a sub-oscillator an octave lower with the same line and see if you like it or not. But real punch and clarity comes from the range where your bass is at... the lower octave is all rumble.
It would be easy enough to layer in a sub-oscillator an octave lower with the same line and see if you like it or not. But real punch and clarity comes from the range where your bass is at... the lower octave is all rumble.
-
- KVRist
- 428 posts since 2 Mar, 2007 from UK
I think the issue with this tune is that the bass is too weak, it sounds like the synth you are using is lacking in bass or has been eq'ed out.
What I would do is create a patch with just a single sine oscillator, using the same notes as the bassline and pitch it down untill it sounds bassy then mix that in with the original bassline but add an eq on the orignal bassline's channel to high pass (low cut) what little bass is there away- set your high cut to about 150hz or maybe higher depending on the notes you are using.
The other problem you will find is that you kick is to long the bass from you kick is very strong and continues almost up to the start of a new kick. A lot of your bassline's notes are on-beat (falling at the same time as the kick) so you are going to want a smaller kick and possibly to roll of some of the lows of the bassline and sidechain it.
Just try the frist thing first and then see how you go maybe?
It sounds like you could use a free analyser to help you see what is going on why not download voxengo span? It is free and will help you in this particular situation well as you will be able to compare your bass line, kick and new sub line easily to make sure they don't overlap to much and pillage your headroom...
Hope that helps and is understandable
What I would do is create a patch with just a single sine oscillator, using the same notes as the bassline and pitch it down untill it sounds bassy then mix that in with the original bassline but add an eq on the orignal bassline's channel to high pass (low cut) what little bass is there away- set your high cut to about 150hz or maybe higher depending on the notes you are using.
The other problem you will find is that you kick is to long the bass from you kick is very strong and continues almost up to the start of a new kick. A lot of your bassline's notes are on-beat (falling at the same time as the kick) so you are going to want a smaller kick and possibly to roll of some of the lows of the bassline and sidechain it.
Just try the frist thing first and then see how you go maybe?
It sounds like you could use a free analyser to help you see what is going on why not download voxengo span? It is free and will help you in this particular situation well as you will be able to compare your bass line, kick and new sub line easily to make sure they don't overlap to much and pillage your headroom...
Hope that helps and is understandable
-
- KVRian
- 503 posts since 1 Jun, 2008
somethign i was gonna add yesterday (but then my battery completely died) is:
few (if any) soundsystems will be able to reproduce really low sub bass in any audible way, so its quite common practice to high-pass (low cut) your sub bass (and the rest of the track) from say 25 or 30 hZ down. The reason for doign this is that those unnecessary low frequencies will likely be eating up precious headroom in your mix.
better not to take this as a general rule tho, but just try it on a track to track basis and see if it improves things (or otherwise).
re.somethign someone said about your kicks being too bassy and havign long sustain: yes, changing to a shorter kick drum wld be one way fixing this, but you may like that kick drum and not want to change it. if this is the case then side-chaining a compressor on the bass to the kick drum (or, alternatively, just manually automating a drop in bass volume everytime the kick drum hits) would be one way of getting round this. whether u do this with a compressor or just an automated volume change though what you're doing here is effectively reducing the strength of the bass right at the start of each bar (and wherever else the kick hits), which unfortunately is generally right where you'd want heavy bass, to give impact. so this may or may not be the best solution.
basically, production/mixing is about compromise, and findign the best combination of compromises to stay as close to your vision as possible while still making something technically acceptable. which means you may have to try a couple of possible solutions b4 u find the one that works best in that particular situation.
EDIT: sorry i cant actually listen to yr track right now, but hopefully these general guidelines/ideas will be of help
few (if any) soundsystems will be able to reproduce really low sub bass in any audible way, so its quite common practice to high-pass (low cut) your sub bass (and the rest of the track) from say 25 or 30 hZ down. The reason for doign this is that those unnecessary low frequencies will likely be eating up precious headroom in your mix.
better not to take this as a general rule tho, but just try it on a track to track basis and see if it improves things (or otherwise).
re.somethign someone said about your kicks being too bassy and havign long sustain: yes, changing to a shorter kick drum wld be one way fixing this, but you may like that kick drum and not want to change it. if this is the case then side-chaining a compressor on the bass to the kick drum (or, alternatively, just manually automating a drop in bass volume everytime the kick drum hits) would be one way of getting round this. whether u do this with a compressor or just an automated volume change though what you're doing here is effectively reducing the strength of the bass right at the start of each bar (and wherever else the kick hits), which unfortunately is generally right where you'd want heavy bass, to give impact. so this may or may not be the best solution.
basically, production/mixing is about compromise, and findign the best combination of compromises to stay as close to your vision as possible while still making something technically acceptable. which means you may have to try a couple of possible solutions b4 u find the one that works best in that particular situation.
EDIT: sorry i cant actually listen to yr track right now, but hopefully these general guidelines/ideas will be of help
Signature blocked until somebody convinces me they aren't utterly pointless
-
- KVRian
- 503 posts since 1 Jun, 2008
no, they mean that if the kick and bass play at precisely the same time at all then they should not fall in the same frequency range, otherwise they will "overload" your levels and make a mess of your mix. to put it in laymans terms.gritzildino wrote: I always hear people saying that the bass/sub bass needs to work well with the kick. I think mostly the mean that the key of each compliment each other. Or do they mean that the bass/sub bass should be on a different beat than the kick? Ex: Kick and bass should not play at the same time.
the way i think about these frequencies (and mixing in general) is like a chest-of-drawers. youve got maybe 5 or 6 drawers, right, the ones up top are where you put your high hats and other high frequency stuff, then there are some middle draws for keeping synth leads, snares, vocals etc in, then you got the penultimate draw for the kick, and the very bottom draw where you keep the sub bass (obviously you are free to move these thigns around, you could have your kick in the bottomw drawer, and move your bass up to the penultimate draw if you want...these are artistic decisions, not fixed rules). Whats important to understand is that if your bottom draw is already full with the sub then there's no way you can try to squeeze the kick in there too, it just wont fit, so it has to go in the next draw up. this same rule applies with all the instruments: if your middle draws are already overloaded with synths, vox etc, then your percusion is gonna have to in a higher drawer, or in a completely different chest-of-drawers (by which I mean it will have to play at a different time to all these other elements which are in the same frequency range...i.e. onthe next beat, or if that doesnt work then in a completely different part of the track).
hope this stupid analogy helps.
Signature blocked until somebody convinces me they aren't utterly pointless
-
- KVRAF
- 1959 posts since 4 Nov, 2004 from Manchester
True but if you layer the sounds right, it's the most effective way of doing it.monkeyweasel wrote: which unfortunately is generally right where you'd want heavy bass, to give impact. so this may or may not be the best solution.
I try and set up my subbass so that it's a sine wave at 50 - 70hz with a secondary one lower in volume an octive above at around 100 - 140hz to reinforce it a bit and I aim to sit the kicks around the 70 - 90hz area. I side chain the the sub with the kick slightly so that when the kick hits it ducks the sub a tiny amount to give a bit more room. Once that's going I build up the main bass sound which sit's from on top of the upper bass register and stretchs up as far as it needs to go.
The idea at least for me is that the sub is a fairly pure sound so shouldn't clash with a kick anyhow in that bandwidth should they both trigger at once, but at the points they do happen to do so the sidechain will stop the peaks happening whilst still giving a full bodied sound.
Saying all that, I'm more on a DnB tip so my kicks are a bit weaker than most other generes. As has already been said through, it's all about finding your own balance.