oh nOeS!

[Urs]

And for the record, had the OP ever bothered tro download the demo and read the manual:

Stack

The stack parameter determines the number of voices per note. Up to 8 voices can be stacked for a very powerful unison effect, just like a few classic polyphonic synthesizers e.g Oberheim OBXa. Depending on the mode and stack value, however, ACE can still be played polyphonically. Remember that this is not a "supersaw oscillator", it is true unison: the entire voice (all oscillators, filters etc..) is multiplied. Of course this kind of thing takes a lot of CPU power, but we think it is worth it. For instance, multiple filter distortion on one note is much more "alive" than a single filter could ever deliver. In the tweak page, up to 8 voices can be detuned within a range of +/- 24 semitones.

So yes, I admit it, "supersaw oscillator" is a more precise term. Yet a Supersaw created by 9 independent oscillators that run through a single filter have the same problem as a single "supersaw oscillator".

[olikana]

The term "Supersaw" is btw. neither a trademark in US nor in EU.

the term not ofc but can someone claim to have the supersaw oscillator in his synth? (design patent?)
strange noone has done in all these years....even SuperWave the company tryn to do jp8000 clones doesn't include the supersaw oscillator or doesn't call it such.

[bmrzycki]

When I hear the term "supersaw" I immediately think of the oscillator section only. Wikipedia (not always the most accurate) agrees:

The Supersaw is a special waveform originally created by Roland for their JP-8000 and JP-8080 line of analog modeling synthesizers. The idea behind the Supersaw is to emulate the sound of more than one sawtooth oscillator using just one oscillator. The waveform is described as a freerun oscillator and its shape is produced from 7 sawtooth oscillators detuned against each other over a period of time.
Since production of the JP-8000 ceased, several companies have incorporated "Supersaw-like" oscillator algorithms into their hardware and software synthesizers. SUPERWAVE P8 is an example of a software synthesizer inspired by the architecture of the JP-8000 with its multiple sawtooth oscillators, another one being Supersaw Plus [1] which has a JP-8000-style interface and a variation on the supersaw waveform allowing for 2, 4, 6 or 10 oscillators. In 2005 Access Music released their new TI-line of synthesizers which feature an oscillator typed called Hypersaw, which has similar functionality to Roland's Supersaw oscillator. Roland has also continued to produce other synthesizers such as the SH-201, the SH-01, the Roland V-Synth, and the Roland V-Synth XT that have the Supersaw as an available oscillator type.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_JP- ... e_Supersaw

Notice the entire discussion is about Oscillator stacking and not the complete signal chain voice stacking (often called unison).

From the Virus TI reference guide http://access-music.de/page/render/lang ... urces.html the HyperSaw is described under the Oscillator 1 and Oscillator 2 secions as:

Several different oscillator modes are available, each with its own distinct characteristics, including: ..., HyperSaw (up to 9 layered, detunable Saw waves), ...

Nowhere else in the manual does it state or imply the entire signal chain is replicated for HyperSaw sounds.

Finally, take the Omnisphere manual. They specifically mention Supersaw-type sounds when speaking about the Oscillator Voice Multiplier - Unison section:

Oscillator Voice Multiplier - The MULT sub-page contains all the unique, polyphonic Voice Multiplier functions of Omnisphere. The Voice Multiplier adds richness and variety with three versatile modes; Polyphonic Unison, Granular Synthesis or Harmonia. All three modes work via the same basic principle of multiplying the number of oscillator voices to achieve different types of sonic enrichment.

Detune Fine/Coarse - These mode switches determine the range of the DETUNE slider. If FINE is selected, then the DETUNE slider will only detune the UNISON voices up to a half step (99 cents). This works for classic Unison and "SuperSaw" types of sounds.

[Urs]

Nah, I don't think it's patented - there's simply, too much prior art.

It's strange indeed that no-one markets his stuff with the supersaw term. Except for http://www.kvraudio.com/get.php?mode=show&id=1200 maybe.

There's really no reasons not to use Supersaw as a marketing term, unless maybe it's favourable to point out its absence

[Urs]

(I also think that trademark laws in most countries say that if a trademark coins a term, then it partly looses its trademark protection. E.g. Google Inc. is running into the problem that any search engine can say "you can google the internet with us" because "to google" is synonymous for internet search. As is Supersaw for stacked oscillators.)

[Sendy]

My god, this is still going?

As an owner of the jp-8000 I can tell you that the manual states that the Supersaw is created by a single freerun oscillator and some form of pitch shifting; and it was designed to emulate string ensembles and similar sounds. I'd love to know *exactly* what's going on under the sliders, but to me the JP's Supersaw sounds much nicer than most of the Supersaw clones I've heard in VST's (with a few exceptions - and these aren't marketed as supersaws). For a start it is less 'busy' and 'fuzzy' and 'muddy' than these VST's, which leads me to believe that the detuned voices aren't a full spectrum pitch shift of the whole wave (but that's just my guess).

Looking on the oscilloscope, the Supersaw waveform doesn't really look like either multiple voices OR multiple oscillators, and if you take the detuned portion of the sound away (with the 'body' slider) you are left with a single 'sawtooth' which looks nothing like a traditional saw (and yet still sounds saw-ish, as it's composed of exactly one curve and one vertical face)

I don't make trance and rarely use the Supersaw but I do value it as a unique oscillator type of which the JP-8k has several. As far as I can see, all usage of the term 'Supersaw' from the JP on out is an inexact term used for describing a certain ballpark area of sound design.

------------

Now about Urs' usage of the 'no Supersaws' thing... A lot of synth makers (well I've spotted at least two ) have used this kind of catchphrase and I've always taken it to mean "Our instrument makes interesting waveforms which don't need to be smeared with multiple detuned copies and chorus effects to sound interesting".

[Urs]

Actually, I think I found out how the JP8000's Supersaw works, and the Virus TI's Hypersaw. Neither really uses fully free running bandlimited oscillators - they couldn't do that on those dsp chips back then. The one in the JP might indeed be based on a a single oscillator with a little lfo-based modulation trick. Which might explain its nice sound that is unrivaled by any clone I'm aware of. Might be worth looking into.

[olikana]

@bmrzycki.
noone says unison is a supersaw oscillator .
supersaw is the waveform of the jp8000....and any synth which claims to have a supersaw like oscillator should have at least something technically similar.
a synth which only has unison will never claim to have a supersaw oscillator and shouldn't.
that is out of discussion.

but the point is this :
the term "supersaw" has been used in the past 10 years not only technically in reference to the oscillator waveform of the jp8000 and clones....but also in the music industry to refer to a sound -reminiscent of the jp8000 supersaw - and that u could hear all over trance and dance pop productions. nowdaays u can refer to supersaw the same way u refer to a piano.
and whether u create a piano through additive synthesis or whatever...u'd still refer to it as a piano. technically u can argue it's not real piano...but still is a piano sound.
same goes for a supersaw.
the virus , waldorfQ etc were heavily used in making trance music full of what were described supersaw leads...and they only could do this through unison/detune(the virus only recently introduced the hypersaw)the results were not so much different from the 7 detuned saws of the jp8000.

if i make a supersaw sound with unison instead of stacking at oscillator level u cannot notice the difference anyway unless in tweaking the filter u encounter those problems urs was talking about...which are related to stackin oscillators and putttin them through only 1 filter(therfore unison would be the higher quality approach to it).

and btw it's incorrect to say unison does not stack oscillators....cos it does stack the oscillators alongside everything else [/b]

[olikana]

As far as I can see, all usage of the term 'Supersaw' from the JP on out is an inexact term used for describing a certain ballpark area of sound design.

i can agree with that
the term from then on has been adopted to describe the sound of stacked detuned saws.

[bob bobwood]

Fascinating thread, thanks.

[Kriminal]

(I also think that trademark laws in most countries say that if a trademark coins a term, then it partly looses its trademark protection. E.g. Google Inc. is running into the problem that any search engine can say "you can google the internet with us" because "to google" is synonymous for internet search. As is Supersaw for stacked oscillators.)

thats plain silly..the phrase wouldnt exist if it wasnt for google..which is a search engine...i doubt google will lose that case.

[Urs]

(I also think that trademark laws in most countries say that if a trademark coins a term, then it partly looses its trademark protection. E.g. Google Inc. is running into the problem that any search engine can say "you can google the internet with us" because "to google" is synonymous for internet search. As is Supersaw for stacked oscillators.)

thats plain silly..the phrase wouldnt exist if it wasnt for google..which is a search engine...i doubt google will lose that case.

Well, I read that a couple of weeks ago in a serious press article. I doubt that anyone would do mess with Google, but in our area terms such as Supersaw, Transient Designer, Moogfilter, Exciter, Harmoniser etc. have become so common for certain types of processes and features that none of the original copyright holders will risk to loose a lawsuit against a plugin developer. Needless to say, hardly any of these terms were ever trademarked.

(I remember that SPL were a bit aggrieved about Virsyn using "Transient Designer" as part of a product name. Virsyn renamed it back then, but SPL really hadn't had a case.)

[Architeuthis]

My god, this is still going?

My thoughts exactly.

And for the record, had the OP ever bothered tro download the demo and read the manual:

Fine, I'll bother right now.

Now about Urs' usage of the 'no Supersaws' thing... A lot of synth makers (well I've spotted at least two ) have used this kind of catchphrase and I've always taken it to mean "Our instrument makes interesting waveforms which don't need to be smeared with multiple detuned copies and chorus effects to sound interesting".

Here's my problem with your and Urs' statement. The problem is that I find supersaws to be the most amazing synthesizer sound (maybe even most amazing sound period) I've ever heard. That is why my search for the perfect supersaw will continue indefinitely. Supersaws can create all sorts of beautiful pads, leads, basses, strums, acoustic imitations, etc. I describe a supersaw as something heavenly, angelic, fantastical, powerful, raw, biting, searing, stabbing... To me, a supersaw is for electronic music like strings are for orchestra.

Edit: So point is... don't tell me your synth can't do supersaw (or whatever term is being used these days)!

[Architeuthis]

dood, I gotta say, Ace is sounding pretty good.

http://shup.com/Shup/430753/ace_junk.mp3 (yay demo noises)


Urs, why are you the only one I know of that has included some very rare analog-imitative features in your synth? You've got crosstalk, capacitor failure, dunno what slop is. Also, variable sync. Not to mention the reactivity of the filters and their non-linear response, very nice.

[adamszabo]

The problem is that I find supersaws to be the most amazing synthesizer sound (maybe even most amazing sound period) I've ever heard.

Welcome to the club