KVR Audio

adamszabo · Post by **adamszabo** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:40 am

I was gonna keep this for myself a bit longer, but what the hell, I wanna tease a bit. Its in alpha stage:

androidlove · Post by **androidlove** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:00 am

so, which softsynth can do this?

adamszabo · Post by **adamszabo** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:02 am

androidlove wrote:so, which softsynth can do this?

that one up there ^

nix808 · Post by **nix808** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:42 am

Did you build it adam?
all success

kmonkey · Post by **kmonkey** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:44 am

Urs wrote:Actually, I think I found out how the JP8000's Supersaw works, and the Virus TI's Hypersaw. Neither really uses fully free running bandlimited oscillators - they couldn't do that on those dsp chips back then. The one in the JP might indeed be based on a a single oscillator with a little lfo-based modulation trick. Which might explain its nice sound that is unrivaled by any clone I'm aware of. Might be worth looking into.

Is that some sort of subtle teaser for Zebra update

There is one name for you guys: "Supersaw Sissy" - that's copyrighted by me

IncarnateX · Post by **IncarnateX** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:46 am

Urs wrote:The one in the JP might indeed be based on a a single oscillator with a little lfo-based modulation trick. Which might explain its nice sound that is unrivaled by any clone I'm aware of. Might be worth looking into.

As a JP8000 owner I must say I not aware of any worthy clones either.

However, I can still be rather surprised when people only think of the supersaw as a mean to (Euro) trance leads.

I use the supersaw for deep, phat "hyper-analogish" basses, for broad "strings", rich evolving pads or full silky lead sounds that is not detuned to a degree where you only hear a "trance lead"

Can not see any idea of dishing the waveform due to misuse of it in a specific genre. Thus the "100% supersaw free" joke might be funny, but maybe also an expression of fairly narrow thinking? What's next: a 100% saw-free synthesizer?

FWIW: I

ACE, and even I if could not use it for supersaw sounds (which I can IMO) it would still have a lot of potential for other sounds.

adamszabo · Post by **adamszabo** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:55 am

nix808 wrote:Did you build it adam?
all success

Yes, Im making it myself. There were no proper supersaw clones, as people mentioned here, and I got tired of it, and decided to make my own emulation. Its gonna be really close to the real thing, no BS.

nix808 · Post by **nix808** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:31 am

It looks nice man.
Like the styling!
The bg looks sparkly like my TI.
Do you need alpha testers?
I have Acid,Orion,eXT,FL,Kore

Sendy · Post by **Sendy** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:52 am

adamtrance wrote:
nix808 wrote:Did you build it adam?
all success
Yes, Im making it myself. There were no proper supersaw clones, as people mentioned here, and I got tired of it, and decided to make my own emulation. Its gonna be really close to the real thing, no BS.

Nice, good luck with that, I've been hoping someone would do a decent VST clone of the JP. Every contender so far has missed out the main things that make it a sweet synth to own, especially the unique oscillators and controls.

I also think along these lines because the JP has a lush and exotic sound, but a very limiting modulation system where you fall back on LFO1 a lot of the time as the main source besides ribbon and velocity. So a VST version with *real* modulation options would be amazing.

Also, I think Roland totally f**ked up the triangle modulation waveform. Putting the triangle wave through a waveform wrap effect with variable input gain to create a morphing spectra similar to PWM is a stroke of genius, then they go and give it a crippled parameter sweep which moves the waveform a tiny amount! I was not amused... So that would be a neat feature to open up in a VST version.

I know the JP pretty well if you want some honest beta testing.

IncarnateX · Post by **IncarnateX** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:11 am

Sendy wrote:...but a very limiting modulation system where you fall back on LFO1 a lot of the time as the main source besides ribbon and velocity.

Not entirely true. There is a hidden time based LFO 2 beneath the surface and don't forget the real time motion control sequenser or the amazing chorus, which adds a lot of sweet phat richness to the sounds. To this, you can add the possible layering (or splitting) of two patches.

A clone needs to copy these features too to make up for a JP8000 I would say.

Sendy · Post by **Sendy** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:10 pm

IncarnateX wrote:
Sendy wrote:...but a very limiting modulation system where you fall back on LFO1 a lot of the time as the main source besides ribbon and velocity.
Not entirely true. There is a hidden time based LFO 2 beneath the surface and don't forget the real time motion control sequenser or the amazing chorus, which adds a lot of sweet phat richness to the sounds. To this, you can add the possible layering (or splitting) of two patches.

A clone needs to copy these features too to make up for a JP8000 I would say.

LFO2 is rigged to the mod wheel, though, so it's only good for performance flourishes. The slider memory thing is cool but AFAIK you can only hold 4 patterns in the whole machine... So not good for patch design.

Don't get me wrong, I know you can do a lot with the JP. It's just I'm left wanting more options on the JP more than with any other synth. For example, you can't even do PWM envelopes (or any other waveform parameter envelopes) unless you fake it with sync (which actually works pretty well, but then you're in sync mode, so you can't detune osc 2 against osc 1). With a mod matrix this synth would be mind blowing... That's all I'm saying.

Oh yes, the chorus... I have to admit, the choruses are awesome. Especially using 'Super Chorus' on 'Supersaw' for a really 'super' sound

(I'm not even kidding! String machine heaven...)

IncarnateX · Post by **IncarnateX** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:38 pm

Sendy wrote:LFO2 is rigged to the mod wheel, though, so it's only good for performance flourishes

That is no problem. JP8000 can save and recall your mod wheel setting.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:25 pm

I did a bit of experimenting today. Would that be close enough?

http://www.u-he.com/music/supersaw.wav

todd_r · Post by **todd_r** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:44 pm

Urs wrote:...might indeed be based on a a single oscillator with a little lfo-based modulation trick. Which might explain its nice sound that is unrivaled by any clone I'm aware of...

I'm intruiged, are you going to spill the beans or is it a secret? (will listen to the example when not at work)

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:55 pm

todd_r wrote:
Urs wrote:...might indeed be based on a a single oscillator with a little lfo-based modulation trick. Which might explain its nice sound that is unrivaled by any clone I'm aware of...
I'm intruiged, are you going to spill the beans or is it a secret? (will listen to the example when not at work)

My experiment is with free running oscs, and merely the method I thought was used in the VirusTI.

I havn't quite finalised my analysis. It took me an hour to find an audio cable to connect the JP to my audio interface. It seems though that the peaks don't switch direction, so it's rather free running.

I think the gist is all about the sawtooth shape, which is more of an impulse, and the initial spacing of the phases. The way it's done will never "converge" with more than, say, 3 peaks, so that the overall amplitude does not exceed certain levels. Which is good for minimising noisy intermodulation distortion.

There are two little problems though: The JP supersaw gets brighter in the bass, which is odd. And there's of course a highpass filter. I think it has a tad of resonance to bring back the fundamental. Finding the right amount of each (lowpass and highpass) is nerve wrecking. Especially as the lowpass is probably related to the JP's filter section. Thus I'll have to measure the response of the filter as well and "subtract" that from the equation.

oh nOeS!