I'm trying to embrace song form/structure.. any advice/ thoughts?

[shanew711]

Every time I watch a computer masterclass I realize that the producer is using some kind of verse, chorus, bridge, etc song form. Also, after reading various blogs I realized that it's important to set a predetermined song form beforehand if you want to be able to easily create a cohesive song. The problem I have is that I am not really completely sure what a verse/chorus in an electronic song actually consists of, such as the number of bars typically in each and the amount of variety each usually contains before jumping to the next section. Does anyone know of any good song form resources? Do you all use song form when preparing to make a song?

[blueghost]

listen to the beatles

[jancivil]

I would say to avoid the idea of that kind of cookie cutter/ 4 square, counting bars ideas, unless you just love cookie-cutter results. You may prefer to be completely square and predictable, I have no idea. I don't think deciding on x amt of bars is too conducive to creative flow. It really puts the cart before the horse.

You said computer producer master class, which along with "after reading various blogs" kind of indicates a sparse background in music... You won't know about song form until you've worked with some. Information isn't knowledge.

Listen to and perform music - eg., Beatles songs are pretty solid song form every time - for a while, it will do you good. Pay attention to musicians instead of 'producers', good for you also.

And, eat your vegetables... and take out the trash once in a while.

[Max Headroom]

You won't know about song form until you've worked with some.

I think that's a good reason for him to use song forms. In the first part of your post, you mention getting cookie cutter results. I think that's good for new musicians. Everyone wants to think outside the box, but that's hard to do when you don't even know what the box IS.

You have to learn the basics and not everyone can learn from just listening, especially if the recommended music isn't the same type as the requested music. Sometimes a book can really help clarify just what you're hearing.

To that effect, I've heard really good things about "Dance Music Manual" by Rick Snoman, though I have not read it myself. Read some reviews on Amazon to see if it is right for you.

[jazztard]

I would recommend a practical approach: import your favourite song/track in your host and try to recreate it 1:1, or alternatively - to make your own version of it, but following the same structure. You'll learn in the process.

A good place to start is Kraftwerk - "The Mix", as it is all pure classics and the songs all have pretty clear structures, along the lines of verse/chorus/bridge, etc.

But remember: practice makes the master!

[wrench45us]

the Beatles are an interesting example. a friend of mine spent considerable time tryting to make things fit a known structure with certain Beatle tunes only to figure out and/or find the sheet music to find they occasioally threw in a 2/4 bar now and again to get things to fit.
Then again I've heard that Sir Paul encouraged Elvis Costello to follow more conventional forms of equal bar structures as a discipline for better song writing. Next thing you know Elvis is singing standards and marrying Diana Krall.
(then again the Beatles were better than just about anyone at putting song fragments together Abbey Road side 2)

before I sit down at the computer I usually try and figure out 3 related parts for a song to work on piano. Different things happen once I get on computer, but I like to have 3 parts before I start. Doesn't always work out to equal bar parts, but I don't run into the I have a terrific 4 bars and need to make a song out of it issues that seems to happen to a lot of 'producers' who haven't looked at song structure.

[tapper mike]

Don't be fooled by the cover
http://www.amazon.com/Arranging-Techniq ... 082561130X

Not only does it have a very well written chapter on song form but also a great deal of other information.

Then pick up BIAB/Real Band
http://pgmusic.com/

It will allow you to block out the whole song in sections, Put progressions in those sections. You'll be able to see entire work on one page and if you play around with the styles you'll get an idea on how you want it to sound

[ugocapeto]

That looks like a good book. I actually am gonna check it out (i mean, buy it, as you can't have too many books on song creation). Thanks.

[skipscada]

Don't be ashamed to go for the tried and tested, both in terms of harmony and structure. If it ends up sounding boring, just identify the point where you feel "this is boring" and replace it with something else, throwing in a part with a different metre or a few unobvious notes, something off the wall. Beatles having already been mentioned, remember that they often put together a couple of unrelated sketches to make one song. That alone made their songs more dynamic, and in addition they had to try out some experimental stuff to smooth over the connecting points.

[MikeInOttawa]

Don't be ashamed to go for the tried and tested, both in terms of harmony and structure. If it ends up sounding boring, just identify the point where you feel "this is boring" and replace it with something else, throwing in a part with a different metre or a few unobvious notes, something off the wall. Beatles having already been mentioned, remember that they often put together a couple of unrelated sketches to make one song. That alone made their songs more dynamic, and in addition they had to try out some experimental stuff to smooth over the connecting points.

+1

You want to try and stick to a pattern in order to maintain a cohesiveness, which can be boring, but it's a proven technique. But if you can include different sounds/textures/levels etc, you can change the thing up a bit. Beethoven's 7th Symphony, 2nd movement is, to me, the ultimate example of this.

If you want to screw it up even more, throw in some dissonance as well. That ALWAYS adds interest to a song.

I think song form is generally no different between pop, rock, electronic, and other genres. But if you want an example of song form in electronic music........hmmm. Howard Jones, Gary Numan, Kraftwerk, and so on?

[mgpqa1]

I usually pick a bunch of my favorite songs as well as what's currently popular (say what you will about today's crap, but the people who made them are paid to write songs that get people's attention) and load them up in my DAW and section everything off into blocks (verse, buildup, chorus, etc.). I can then compare/contrast everything and you'll definitely notice patterns (cookie cutters). The last step is to just experiment and modify things to your liking; making arrangements into your own.

[Real Grooves Audio]

listen to the beatles

+100

The Beatles are the masters of song structure. From them you will learn it all: Beginning the song with the chorus, how to build a middle 8, etc..

[Ogg Vorbis]

I usually pick a bunch of my favorite songs as well as what's currently popular (say what you will about today's crap, but the people who made them are paid to write songs that get people's attention) and load them up in my DAW and section everything off into blocks (verse, buildup, chorus, etc.). I can then compare/contrast everything and you'll definitely notice patterns (cookie cutters). The last step is to just experiment and modify things to your liking; making arrangements into your own.

THIS. I have done this and found it very insightful. I can really get a better sense of form if I go from the "intellectual knowledge" and move to the "experiential knowledge." In other words, I have found that I don't really KNOW something until I put it into practice for myself.

Also the results of this kind of experimentation always seems to result in something original rather than copied...it seems that your certain "voice" always gets in there and you make it your own,

[echophex]

I usually pick a bunch of my favorite songs as well as what's currently popular (say what you will about today's crap, but the people who made them are paid to write songs that get people's attention) and load them up in my DAW and section everything off into blocks (verse, buildup, chorus, etc.). I can then compare/contrast everything and you'll definitely notice patterns (cookie cutters). The last step is to just experiment and modify things to your liking; making arrangements into your own.

THIS. I have done this and found it very insightful. I can really get a better sense of form if I go from the "intellectual knowledge" and move to the "experiential knowledge." In other words, I have found that I don't really KNOW something until I put it into practice for myself.

Also the results of this kind of experimentation always seems to result in something original rather than copied...it seems that your certain "voice" always gets in there and you make it your own,

Indeed!! What this does for your musical abilities has by and large been the biggest help to me.
I started doing this not with my favorite songs, but by remixing.
I would take old jazz/swing material and remix it and make it modern.
Whilst doing this for fun I gathered loads of structure/layout/creation tips subconsciously.

[DrApostropheX]

You may also want to check out the pop songs (Cole Porter, Nat King Cole, Hoagy Carmichael, et al.) of the 1930s and '40s (what became the classic Jazz standards, or "songbooks") as all pop music song forms kind of came from there in one way shape or form. I think one thing we've lost over the years is the "Intro" (which often got cut when instrumental jazz players took over a song).