Business ethics

[AdmiralQuality]

There's no thing such "this is my thread", and for extreme beaviours we have the moderators who do their jobs.

Yep. If you want your OWN thread, put it on your website. This place is for discussion. So competitors and/or dissenting opinions should be welcome.

[otristan]

There's no thing such "this is my thread", and for extreme beaviours we have the moderators who do their jobs.

Yep. If you want your OWN thread, put it on your website. This place is for discussion. So competitors and/or dissenting opinions should be welcome.

I don't agree.
If the thread is named after a special product then I would find borderline to come and talk about your product which is in competition with that one.
If the thread is about a category of product then it's ok.

[Urs]

interesting thread with some funny points, I hope I'm not too late to share some of my thoughts:

Of course not! There are no deadlines.

1) for me the only possible "unmoral" beaviour can be agaist the customers, no to the others developers. What Urs call for seems more an etiquette than ethics.

Etiquette is fine with me

2) when in a public forum, (like the "Instruments" one here)
if a user starts a thread and 4 others reply, then there are 5 "owners" of that thread and so on.
There's no thing such "this is my thread", and for extreme beaviours we have the moderators who do their jobs.
A Company can have its forum, and so it is.

Still, threads are often about *specific* instruments. I consider advertising for a competing product in such a thread "not etiquette".

(otristan beat me to it)

3) False claims or wicked definitions are not fraud, scam or any other damages as long as the developer provides
a downloadable demo of the products.
He could claim "after a session with my psyhcoacoustic enhanced subliminal sub booster plugin you will have better sex", the user can then download the demo and try for himself

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. People often hear what they are told to hear. So false claims may be backed up by a demo version even if the demo version technically fails to do so. That's part of marketing pschology scam

So I see two options: Either I don't come up with false marketing claims or I risk to have competitors falsify me. It's obvious that former is less embarassing. However seeing how competitors get bashed (by fanbois) for speaking the truth suggests that it might not happen all too often.

[liqih]

Thanks AQ, that also reminds me that I'm also favourable to comparative reviews and comparative advertising, if done with respect, and I see very little of those. Comparative advertising done right can be helpful for both parties.

Maybe your ideas Urs could be better supported by a cooperative or a consortium
of developers, in the long time tradition of workers supporting each other,
but I see this fighting against the individualims of many of us, <grin>
like cooperatives of artists hardly can be succesful when money are involved.

[Urs]

Thanks AQ, that also reminds me that I'm also favourable to comparative reviews and comparative advertising, if done with respect, and I see very little of those. Comparative advertising done right can be helpful for both parties.

Of course you can do that. Unless you lie about the competition.

Maybe your ideas Urs could be better supported by a cooperative or a consortium
of developers, in the long time tradition of workers supporting each other,
but I see this fighting against the individualims of many of us, <grin>
like cooperatives of artists hardly can be succesful when money are involved.

As I said, I don't want to impose these ideas on everyone. I'm looking for a set of rules for my own business.

Other than that it's going to be tit for tat if anyone pisses me off

[Gamma-UT]

There's no thing such "this is my thread", and for extreme beaviours we have the moderators who do their jobs.

Yep. If you want your OWN thread, put it on your website. This place is for discussion. So competitors and/or dissenting opinions should be welcome.

I don't agree.
If the thread is named after a special product then I would find borderline to come and talk about your product which is in competition with that one.
If the thread is about a category of product then it's ok.

This point has been made earlier but if you want shills and sockpuppets to turn up, the best way to achieve that is a blanket ban like this, especially if you have a less than scrupulous competitor. Forum users and mods can make their minds up about the appropriateness of a vendor's behaviour: and it's easier to judge if their interests are out in the open.

[Urs]

Well I think, that if an etiquette is established, the sock puppets will be identified quickly and shouted out of the thread.

[Nokenoku]

3) False claims or wicked definitions are not fraud, scam or any other damages as long as the developer provides
a downloadable demo of the products.

I disagree extremely here.

If developers pollute the web and customers minds with lies and stuff like that, it's actually a crime to me. That's about the worst thing a developer can do in marketing. And I personally strictly would never ever buy anything from such a developer.

Also .. if your product has some actual benefits, you don't need to lie.
When a developer tries to sell his stuff by lying (or giving misleading information), there's a high possibility, that it's not worth its price (compared with its competition).
Customers should keep that in mind.

[liqih]

if a user starts a thread and 4 others reply, then there are 5 "owners" of that thread and so on.
There's no thing such "this is my thread", and for extreme beaviours we have the moderators who do their jobs.
A Company can have its forum, and so it is.

Still, threads are often about *specific* instruments. I consider advertising for a competing product in such a thread "not etiquette".

Yes, I hear you, but I don't agree to persecute that, I uderstand that it can be annoying and bothersome, but if I ask myself "is that really wrong in a public forum?" then I can't answer "yes it's wrong", or what else does "public place" mean?

(otristan beat me to it)

3) False claims or wicked definitions are not fraud, scam or any other damages as long as the developer provides
a downloadable demo of the products.
He could claim "after a session with my psyhcoacoustic enhanced subliminal sub booster plugin you will have better sex", the user can then download the demo and try for himself

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. People often hear what they are told to hear. So false claims may be backed up by a demo version even if the demo version technically fails to do so. That's part of marketing pschology scam

Well this is putting very little faith in your users, no? <grin>, I know that as developers of audio we can feel also
almost "educators", but personal taste and choices still rule in music.

So I see two options: Either I don't come up with false marketing claims or I risk to have competitors falsify me. It's obvious that former is less embarassing. However seeing how competitors get bashed (by fanbois) for speaking the truth suggests that it might not happen all too often.

Usr I see that as personal choice though, something like "I believe in that and I behave accordingly",
for me it's much a kind of game, a chess game if you like, and I choose my moves one by one even though I have a strategy.

[liqih]

Well I think, that if an etiquette is established, the sock puppets will be identified quickly and shouted out of the thread.

Don't we have already such etiquette, here at least?,
I agree with: or a blanket ban (but this change the whole forum) or just let it go.

[liqih]

3) False claims or wicked definitions are not fraud, scam or any other damages as long as the developer provides
a downloadable demo of the products.

I disagree extremely here.

If developers pollute the web and customers minds with lies and stuff like that, it's actually a crime to me. That's about the worst thing a developer can do in marketing. And I personally strictly would never ever buy anything from such a developer.

Exactly, open minded users will not buy in the long run,
so the developer is punishing himself.

The best we can do is to be honest and allow open minded users to grow.
Or do you want to fight against "developers who pollute the web and customers minds with lies"?
How to judge that accurately?

Or will those follow your etiquette once you say "it's better to do not do that"?

Rather I think they will do when they'll see an advantage for them.

Also .. if your product has some actual benefits, you don't need to lie.
When a developer tries to sell his stuff by lying (or giving misleading information), there's a high possibility, that it's not worth its price (compared with its competition).
Customers should keep that in mind.

As above

[mellotronaut]

i like the word 'etiquette' instead of ethics, but there is no way to prevent somebody from being a fool, playing 'foul' or from pretending something. Moreover i saw several times people being banned from kvr because of bad behaviour, though they were triggered and teased by others, who weren't banned (sometimes they were too admittedly). Complex stuff: internet behaviour. Even more: behaviour in 'real' life. Sometimes it's hard not to be an asshole.

[Kriminal]

there is one company/person who does this ALL the time here at KvR....

me, then?

no, not you either

[liqih]

As I said, I don't want to impose these ideas on everyone.
I'm looking for a set of rules for my own business.

Other than that it's going to be tit for tat if anyone pisses me off

Ok I understood that, <grin>

Anyway if you brought here your "set of rules for your own business"
there must be reason, do they need approval or are you suggesting to others?

But in any case it's good, I think, to raise the awareness of a common etiquette

(just thinking out loud here)

[Nokenoku]

Exactly, open minded users will not buy in the long run, ...

Which are about 5%. Also lying does not get less bad, just because some people notice it.
Those lies can damage the market for other developers and they can damage potential customers.

Lying and deception in marketing is inacceptable. Period.