When was the first documented use of odd time signature in western music?

[cosmogrill]

I know it's a hard question to answer, but who were the pioneers of OTS?

* I guess it was first used in folk music, but who was the first to take it into structured, written music?
* By odd time signature I mean 5/X, 7/X, 11/X etc. Not talking about 3,6,9,12 although some people would consider it "odd".


Thanks.

[stephenpaulharper]

This is a really good question. Brahms came to mind first because of the folk music connection. Telemann takes the honors according to Wiki, but I'm unfamiliar with the piece, and don't know the context. My guess is that some kind of dance from the Renaissance that was written out would qualify.

Steve

[Jafo]

My guess is that some kind of dance from the Renaissance that was written out would qualify.

You're probably right. Meter as such didn't formally exist in the Renaissance, but phrasing suggested all sorts of unusual and irregular meters, often changing from one phrase to the next. In a way, that's even more radical and experimental than writing in a consistent odd meter.

* By odd time signature I mean 5/X, 7/X, 11/X etc. Not talking about 3,6,9,12 although some people would consider it "odd".

Only the 3/X and 9/X of that list; 6/X and 12/X are even meters.

[VicDiesel]

If you go back far enough, music wasn't notated in time signatures.

The Baldwin manuscript dates from the late 1500s and it is rythmically wild. Five over 3, nine over eight. It took western music a couple of centuries to come up with anything remotely as strange.

Victor.

[herodotus]

The Baldwin manuscript

Linkee?

[herodotus]

And I suppose that I should do my normal party-pooper act and mention that 'time signature' is not identical with 'meter'.

All Indian Classical music, for example, has a meter, but none of it had what we would call a 'time signature'.

And Indian Classical music has had odd meters for a long time. Though how far back these go is hard to determine.

[VicDiesel]

The Baldwin manuscript

Linkee?

Wish I could oblige you. Googling gives just a couple of links, and none that help.

And I just moved so I can't find anything, otherwise I'd be happy to scan a page or two.

Victor.

[stephenpaulharper]

And I suppose that I should do my normal party-pooper act and mention that 'time signature' is not identical with 'meter'.

All Indian Classical music, for example, has a meter, but none of it had what we would call a 'time signature'.

And Indian Classical music has had odd meters for a long time. Though how far back these go is hard to determine.

All quite true, but the OP specifically asked for examples of written Western music.

Steve

[herodotus]

All quite true, but the OP specifically asked for examples of written Western music.

Steve

Actually he asked for 'structured, written music', assuming that odd meters were 'first used in folk music'.

I was more questioning this assumption than I was answering his question, because Indian classical music is definitely structured, and it isn't folk music.

As for who first used 5, 7, or 11 based meters in western music, I have no idea, although for some reason I want to say 'Scriabin'. I do know that odd meters were used on an ad hoc basis long before anyone wrote whole pieces in them.

The first composers to make extensive, prolonged use of odd meters that I am aware of were Ives, Stravinsky, and Bartok. I am sure that there must have been others doing it earlier, but for the life of me I can't recall their names.

[Jafo]

And I suppose that I should do my normal party-pooper act and mention that 'time signature' is not identical with 'meter'.

All Indian Classical music, for example, has a meter, but none of it had what we would call a 'time signature'.

And Indian Classical music has had odd meters for a long time. Though how far back these go is hard to determine.

Indeed, indeed; point taken. Still, we all know what we mean, and it's faster and easier to write "meter" than "time signature" or the even more precise "pulses or beats per regular unit of time (aka bar)." Then again, "TS" is much faster and just as precise. It's all good.

Oh, and thanks for the links; looks like a lot of great stuff therein.

[stephenpaulharper]

The first composers to make extensive, prolonged use of odd meters that I am aware of were Ives, Stravinsky, and Bartok.

Absolutely. Not coincidentally, three of my favorite composers. Barber too, maybe? Holst, Fauré and Milhaud? I still think Brahms should be in the mix — the Hungarian dances — I'm pretty sure there are some odd signatures in those, although I haven't listened to them in years. Number 5 for sure, 'cos I played it back at university.

I am sure that there must have been others doing it earlier, but for the life of me I can't recall their names.

Man, I gave up trying to keep up with composers a long time ago. I always manage to find somebody I haven't heard of before on the radio, particularly Baroque and pre-Baroque guys.

Steve

[VicDiesel]

for some reason I want to say 'Scriabin'. I do know that odd meters were used on an ad hoc basis long before anyone wrote whole pieces in them.

Scriabin probably predates that waltz-in-five movement in some Tchaikovsky symphony.

And your second point is an excellent one. That Baldwine manuscript uses cantus firmus of any length, and the weird time signatures are superimposed, but not systematically.

You're in luck. I dug into some stacks of paper and found it. This edition calls it the Baldwine Manuscript. Here are two pages (in the wrong order. sue me):

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4104137/miserere.pdf

The first page has a nine-over-four (or at least three-triplets-over-four) and the second seven-over-six. One of my recorder teachers told me how some students of his did a three-voice piece like this as their final examination piece. The notes are trivial, the rhythm is hell. That piece had a passage with nine notes over eigth notes of the cantus firmus. Ouch. (To spell it out: set your metronome for 120, now play nine equally long notes over 8 clicks. Ouch.)

Note that this is a realization from parts books. Also, the original notation is nothing like what's used here, however I'm not a notation expert.

Victor.

[trimph1]

Was this the note style you mentioned? This one was from Ludford's Lady's Mass



or the Forrest-Heyter Part Books---



I tried some of these things out at one time..

[VicDiesel]

Was this the note style you mentioned?

....

or the Forrest-Heyter Part Books---

I believe Baldwin was involved in that.

Victor.

[trimph1]

Was this the note style you mentioned?

....

or the Forrest-Heyter Part Books---

I believe Baldwin was involved in that.

Victor.

I think you are right. He was sort of mentioned in here---

http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelprestyp ... dynev.html

But I found no mention of him in this site here

http://www.hoasm.org/IVM/partbooksgcc.html

I can see digging around in here one can find all kinds of odd tempo things out---