How to go out of scale?

[FarleyCZ]

Hi all.

Question. In Cee-lo's song "F*ck You" are chords: C D7 F C
It seems to be in Cmajor key, but D7 chord has a F# note which don't belongs to the scale.
(Just for listen to what we're talking about. )
But wherever I want to go out of scale, it sounds bad. How can I find chords out of scale which sounds like they belongs to the song?

I was discussing it here time ago with example of O-Town's "All Or Nothing" song, where in one of bridges they borrowed a note from different scale. But since then I can't find out what to do to find that out of scale chords which sounds good with the rest of the song.

In some tutorials they say: Find a pivot chord! But again, in Cee-lo's song isn't any at all. After D7 chord he plays F chord with F note. One would say, that chords with F# and F note from different scales would need such a pivot chord.

There must be some way to do that. To find such a combinations whlie composing. Any ideas?

[llatham]

Hi all.



In some tutorials they say: Find a pivot chord! But again, in Cee-lo's song isn't any at all. After D7 chord he plays F chord with F note. One would say, that chords with F# and F note from different scales would need such a pivot chord.

There must be some way to do that. To find such a combinations whlie composing. Any ideas?

Pivot Chords are for modulating - not what's happening here.

The reason this "works" is:

A. Because we've heard it before in other tunes.

and

B. The chords set up a chromatic descent - G-F#-F-E so it sounds like it resolves nicely on the third of the C chord. They also all have a C in them, which ties them together.

There are a lot of ways to go out of the scale - some more "out" than others. My advice would be to continue to figure out progressions like, ahem, Forget You, and then note which chords are out of key, their sound, and keep them in your back pocket to use when needed.

Best,
Steve

[FarleyCZ]

Well thanks.

But even though ... how they did it? Actually how often one compose based on the progression? Even if I "jam" on the keyboard, I don't think about chords as a first thing. I start ususally with some melody and "bass line" for it. And even if I try to insert such a chord, I never find out how to make it work.

But on the other side there are lot of "casual" guitar musicians, who are just "throwing" chords together form different keys and it works. For example:

In the refrain, first three chords: Bminor, F#, G. Now i Can't find out one scale this is in. There must be a way how to naturally think up this combinations. I've never played guitar, that could be problem, but stilll, it must be possible without copying somebody's progressions. Or it's really just about "try and fail" method?

[The Chubu]

I dun know a lot about this but my opinion is that they actually didnt thought about that specific combination, but they thought about the sound, so if sounds well, so thats it.

I usually end in some augmented or diminished chords that rather than sit well cuz they are in scale, they're too rough in the context that they're given. So i change those chords a bit so the sound well, even if it means changing some notes to other ones off the scale.

I already tried to use chords as a rule, but it doesnt work too well (or maybe is that i dont know enough), so i started to using them as a guide only, works a lil better sometimes

But take all what i said with a grain of salt. My knowledge of composition is limited. Just the m d M m m M M and the M m m M M m d that i learnt in the Wiki

[FarleyCZ]

Well we are on the same wave. I also doesn't use them as a rule, but when I search my compositions back, it always stays in one key and I feel like I'm missing something.

[A.M. Gold]

That's a nice progression, and I'm not sure it works strictly because of the C in D7 because it has a very similar feel with just a D major.

I'm not the kind of theory hound to know exactly what this progression is called but I think it may work partly because the substituted note, F#, is very quickly replaced with the scale note, F, when the F major is played.

I think one key to making substitutions like that work melodically (other than having them agree with the main melody) is to pass through them quickly and then firmly reestablish the home key. A G major would have been a bad choice there because it would have reinforced a modulation to G, so the next best choice was F major, which also created the falling melodic sense of F# going to F, then to E when the C major resolution happens.

I just realized (not sure if someone touched on this) that the F chord also suggests the D minor 7, which is in the key of C, since F major has all the same notes except D. So it was similar to going from D7 to D min 7, which helped transition quickly from the substitution back to a chord that is at home in the key of C.

Smooth transitions are the key to this. You can spice up a progression with a substitution out of the main key but you have to do it in a way that isn't too abrupt and doesn't pull too strongly into the other key. Another aspect is it has to make sense in terms of flow. If you study how they did it here, you can learn one way to do it, but it's the basic concept that you have to grasp and then try to apply it to other progressions, rather than just repeating what they did.

[pensaku]

If you don't learn basic Elementary School Music 101 you can't understand it.
Also highschool music will help.

But you can't go back to school can you? You are too old to be in elementary school.

[jancivil]

the cart of 'is it in key' isn't meant to pull the horse of 'does it sound good to me'.

[Ogg Vorbis]

the cart of 'is it in key' isn't meant to pull the horse of 'does it sound good to me'.

I am going to have to diagram that out...that's pretty deep.

[seacouch]

When it comes to "going out of scale", this is a pretty mild example, regardless of how you analyze it. But as has been pointed out, the progression sets up a chromatic "line cliche" descending from G to E. A device like this will often provide a thematic context that supplants the need for a unifying scale.

[A.M. Gold]

the cart of 'is it in key' isn't meant to pull the horse of 'does it sound good to me'.

I am going to have to diagram that out...that's pretty deep.

As was this:

If you don't learn basic Elementary School Music 101 you can't understand it.
Also highschool music will help.

But you can't go back to school can you? You are too old to be in elementary school.

[C00kie]

Me thinks because the essential notes in this progression are:

Code: Select all

C:  C - G
D7: D - F#
F:  F - F
C:  C - E

First note is the bass, second one is like a supporting harmonic melody.
Notice how the latter is just a chromatic descending sequence, which is not that odd at all.

[psenior]

A couple of comments:

Why does D7 sound good in the key of C? Well, it's the V7 of the V (G). You can look at the F# as being the b5 of C major, which is a bluesy sounding note. Or, you could include F# as part of C major's pitch set, which would give you G dominant bebop.

It's weird; I've analyzed several pop songs on this forum and they have all been in G dominant bebop. This is called a clue. Search my posting history if you don't believe me.

I have come to the conclusion that many pop composers are using harmonies derived from bebop dominant to create interesting chord changes for songs in a way that the average musician just doesn't understand yet. Start playing with this 8 note stuff guys like I've been saying all along and and it will all make sense to you if you are clever.

If you are still struggling to understand the above, I can discuss it more in-depth in the future. But I think if you sit down and ask yourself "What chords can be found in this 8 note pitch set?," the light bulbs will go off above your head and you'll discover something that's almost magical.

[A.M. Gold]

Interesting. This may or may not have anything to do with what you have in mind, but the #5 can also be a "magical" note. I mentioned this in another thread---play 1-3-5-#5-5-3-1 over and over and tell me if you haven't heard that in a million sci-fi movie soundtracks.

[PurpleCatfishBettie]

Also, if you go to the 'relative minor' key of C Major, it's 'a minor.'

The F# is a note employed in the key of 'a melodic minor'

In the 'Bminor, F#, G' example, you could describe that as the '1, 5, 6' ('i V VI') chords in the key of 'b harmonic minor.'