I think I finally hate amp sims!

[Acid Mitch]

Don't tempt me! I already own TH1

I saw that, in the morning I'll have a nice check and my first thought while reading it was...."not MORE models"

We can haz more toys!!

And the best part is, it doesnt matter if it sounds good or not 'cos you'll be too busy trying all the different options to stick with one tone for more than 2 mins.
By the time you've found that perfect tone the update will be out making your version sound inferior and you'll have to start the whole proccess over again.

[Hink]

Don't tempt me! I already own TH1

I saw that, in the morning I'll have a nice check and my first thought while reading it was...."not MORE models"

We can haz more toys!!

And the best part is, it doesnt matter if it sounds good or not 'cos you'll be too busy trying all the different options to stick with one tone for more than 2 mins.
By the time you've found that perfect tone the update will be out making your version sound inferior and you'll have to start the whole proccess over again.

those quotes are wrong, it was blueman that said "don't tempt me! I already own TH1"...I do not own it...FWIW I would not likely be interested in TH2 or another sim at this point. I have several amps I want to add (or build) and I can't rule out getting a newer POD than my xt, but like tek is with his j station I am with my xt.

[sascha]

But if sascha were to come into this thread would the two of you be open to disscussing the crashes with him?

We're prepairing the update here. If nothing goes wrong, it will come out right before xmas.

[susiwong]

I'll be buying the radial re-amping kit to properly send a signal to an amp for re-amping as well.

Care to explain what you need that kit for ?
Not reamping itself, but that expensive hardware ?
Afaics half of it is a (decent) DI - you might already have one, or a HiZ input at the converter (not needed at all for reamping)
The other half is what puzzles me, a simple voltage divider, maybe with a $5 buffer after, should do the job nicely, why not ?
No doubt the Radial stuff will work (the DI reportedly struggles with passive PUs though), but is it really needed ? Convince me !
Cheers,
susiwong

[Hink]

I'll be buying the radial re-amping kit to properly send a signal to an amp for re-amping as well.

Care to explain what you need that kit for ?
Not reamping itself, but that expensive hardware ?
Afaics half of it is a (decent) DI - you might already have one, or a HiZ input at the converter (not needed at all for reamping)
The other half is what puzzles me, a simple voltage divider, maybe with a $5 buffer after, should do the job nicely, why not ?
No doubt the Radial stuff will work (the DI reportedly struggles with passive PUs though), but is it really needed ? Convince me !
Cheers,
susiwong

I'm not sure I can convince...you make some good points. I'm going by this belief that is about the Pro RMP.

The Radial ProRMP, a transformer coupled reamping device that allows a prerecorded line level signal to drive a guitar amplifier and pedal effects by properly matching impedance and allowing the user to determine the appropriate level.

I misspoke by saying kit, I would only be getting the x-amp or Pro RMP, I would be mic'ing the cab or using the output on my weber.

[Hink]

But if sascha were to come into this thread would the two of you be open to disscussing the crashes with him?

We're prepairing the update here. If nothing goes wrong, it will come out right before xmas.

thanx sascha, merry xmas

[susiwong]

I misspoke by saying kit, I would only be getting the x-amp or Pro RMP, I would be mic'ing the cab or using the output on my weber.

Ok, that cuts the price down.
The DI is mostly meant to get the guitar into the PC, you already have that covered. You'll rarely need it when reamping.

Wouldn't hurt to try the following :
-- a simple 25k pot (like in a volume pedal for line level) to adjust the ... you guessed it
-- if this messes with your frequency balance, patch a bypassed Boss pedal or similar in between the pot/pedal and the amp as a buffer (note: it has to be a non-true-bypass one !)
-- afaics you should be good then.
-- the only problem you might encounter, depending on your setup, is a ground loop, if you can't fix that by normal means (i.e without messing with the mains ) you can always purchase that Radial.
-- a quick google showed up the Little Labs RedEye as highly regarded alternative. Not exactly cheap either ...

No guarantees, but it could be fun to try out the DIY method and maybe save you some.

Ymmv,
susiwong

Btw, the popular claim that a reamp box gives you the same result as a passive guitar straight to amp obviously is complete

It can't emulate the resonant circuit resulting from your guitar electronics combined with the amp's input stage, a potential source for magic you also sacrifice with an active guitar.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Hink Avenson Audio make a very decent re-amp device which i think is worth a look if you are shopping around. You could always use (if you have one) a passive DI box (IE one that can convert both ways). Then just take the signal out from your interface at line level into the DI then into your Boss Tuner (i am sure i remember you saying you have one or i have seen a pic of it) into amplifier front end and get your mic's out on the cab (not sure if every DI box can do this so you would have to make sure) and if it is all to hand it won't cost you a penny or much for a cheap passive 2-way DI/HZ box or even build one.

@susiwong you know active pickups were made with souless and totally un-magical, hot output but not very dynamic in nature moron's like me in mind However to be fair the lastest range of EMG's (the X-Series) and the SD (Blackout range) have the feel of passive pickups nailed quite well (Neither touches say my scatterwound by hand Bare Knuckle Warpig passive bucker's though but it works in a good way my friend). I think if you get the chance to test drive a model of guitar to your taste with the EMG Xs and also the SD Blackouts in then go for it if you have not IMHO you might be surprised but of course the classic YMMV applies here for sure

On topic:

Do i hate amp sims/emus? No
Do i have an elitist view on the topic? Not at all
Do i use amp sims/emus? Yes but they at least for me only work along with the real deal all-valve heads,cabs,combos, solid-state/FET heads,combo and hybrids with digital pre-amps, valve emulating a power amp with a solid-state power-amp aka Vox AD100VT valvetronix head and before that Marshall's ValveState heads and combos? Yes
Do i use Roland Cube amps? Hell yes - the microcube's Mesa Recto red channel emulation is one of the finest going and worth the price of the amp just for that alone!
Vox AM Plugs? Yes its a decent headphone amp
Vox ToneLab? Yes, so far IMHO the Vox ValveTronix/ToneLab "Valve Reactor" technology is to my ears and feel the most accurate going and for the money great.
Line-6 PODs and amps? Yes, one Bass PODXT, one PODX3, used to have a vetta II head and also used a Spider Valve Mk II quite a few times/am familiar with them.
Fractal Audio AXE FX/Ultra - At that price i think they are having a laugh to be honest.

What i find gives the best results if you are unable to mic up an amp - My regular chain of pedals hitting the frontend of any of my amps/pre-amps with the line out or FX Send going into a line-in on my interface with a good choice set of Mic'd Speaker Cab IRs typically loaded into BoogeX, ReValver MK II or LeCab. If the amp/pre-amp has a decent sounding speaker emulated output then that works also with some ER only reverb to bring a touch of the ambience a mic'd amp does have. This is just my prefernce though and maybe i will try some of the ITB amp sims into my power-amps and mic' up the cab and see if i get anything good from it. If and when i get round to it
Try Vandel in the new year - on the list

All the best and peace out

Dean/Nekro

[susiwong]

@susiwong you know active pickups were made with souless and totally un-magical, hot output but not very dynamic in nature moron's like me in mind However to be fair the lastest range of EMG's (the X-Series) and the SD (Blackout range) have the feel of passive pickups nailed quite well (Neither touches say my scatterwound by hand Bare Knuckle Warpig passive bucker's though but it works in a good way my friend). I think if you get the chance to test drive a model of guitar to your taste with the EMG Xs and also the SD Blackouts in then go for it if you have not IMHO you might be surprised but of course the classic YMMV applies here for sure

Hi Dean,
sorry, misunderstanding !
This one was not against hot or active pickups per se, not one of my usual brainless attacks against the Evil Empire Of Metal , no, I was talking about a very real phenomenon unique to passive guitars:

There is a wonderful interaction between e.g. a passive Gibson (sorry Hink !) and a great simple input stage (good vintage-style amps, our Klons have that, too).
Ideally without treble bleeds, you can pull a rainbow of tones out of that simple combination by playing with the guitar's controls and mixing pickups - the resonating circuit gets changed and it's more than the sum of the parts - simply wow !
Active circuits can't do this - by design.
They have different strenghs, I have a few active guitars which sound great, and behave well on stage.

Back to sim-hating !


Lol,
susiwong

[blueman]

By the time you've found that perfect tone the update will be out making your version sound inferior and you'll have to start the whole proccess over again.

Bingo! That's the entire process in a nutshell

[zerocrossing]

Well, I'll come out and say I hate real amps. To get the sound I want, they need to be too loud (even low wattage amps). They're often noisy. Yay! I get NPR when I use the spring reverb! Most vintage amps or vintage style amps don't have modern features like effects loops. Then they're mics. You can spend just as much time fooling around with mic placement as you did getting the tone in the first place. Want to use a second mic, then there can be phase issues. Talk about a tweaking nightmare. Oh yeah, good mics can cost a ton of money too. While you're at it, make sure your room is well treated! Like to use an audio looper? Sorry! Too hard to not get into a feedback situation. Oh I forgot, they weigh a ton and pedals can be a nightmare. Want your phaser before your fuzzbox but sometimes after? Better get an expensive router or buy multiple pedals.

Amp sims/modelers... Frankly I find Hink's argument that Vandal isn't a "amp sim" is thin. Perhaps it's not a simulation of a specific real world bit of hardware, but since it more or less is set up exactly like one I fail to see any difference. Amplitube also contains a bunch of models that aren't based on any real hardware. So does Pod Farm. Blending amps in TH1 creates amps that have never existed. So I don't get the point and frankly the point seems irrelevant. Either you like the tone or you do not.

So it sounds like the OP went nuts and got everything but maybe never became intimate with any of it. That's probably why I mostly stick with one favorite. Even though Amplitube has tons of gear modeled in it, to me it's all very obvious how to use each model (I've been playing with gear for a long, long time) and the main UI couldn't be more clear. It's almost entirely analogous to the real world. So, since I stick to Amplitube for the most part, I've gotten to know the gear and what models are best at what and I can put something together that's exactly what I want really quickly. Oh, and I can switch between sounds in a heart beat. Try that with hardware.

So most of this is me playing devil's advocate. I like guitar amps and I may one day get another. I understand the "magic" of the interaction between a guitar and a good tube amp. I'd also love to ride a horse to work, but right now guitar amps and horses do not work in my world. So use what fits into your world. While you're at it, sell me your Softube amp sims cheap. I've been wanting to get those for a while.

[Hink]

Amp sims/modelers... Frankly I find Hink's argument that Vandal isn't a "amp sim" is thin. Perhaps it's not a simulation of a specific real world bit of hardware, but since it more or less is set up exactly like one I fail to see any difference.

because I posted the video for you twice of the developer of Vandal explaining why it is not a sim and apparently you haven't watched it. You also by your own admission missed the entire section that defines the difference that being the control of the transformer and sag control when trying the demo (which now you can try again).

So one it isn't my argument, it's repeating what the developer states in the video. Your statement is baseless because you failed to give Vandal a proper test making your post 100% moot.

let us not forget your extreme bias for AT3

edir:sorry for the typos a minute ago, I was eating a pop tart with one hand

[trimph1]

By the time you've found that perfect tone the update will be out making your version sound inferior and you'll have to start the whole proccess over again.

Bingo! That's the entire process in a nutshell

And, that's the way I like it...uh huh uh huh...

I do see the point though. it can be rather infuriating going to find a good sound and then poof, gondie...that's why prefer my many flower approach

[Hink]

By the time you've found that perfect tone the update will be out making your version sound inferior and you'll have to start the whole proccess over again.

Bingo! That's the entire process in a nutshell

And, that's the way I like it...uh huh uh huh...

I do see the point though. it can be rather infuriating going to find a good sound and then poof, gondie...that's why prefer my many flower approach

you have to exercise balance though, not just sims but all the other synths, samplers, daws, fx and what have you. It is indeed very easy to get caught in a 'learning software' quagmire.

[trimph1]

By the time you've found that perfect tone the update will be out making your version sound inferior and you'll have to start the whole proccess over again.

Bingo! That's the entire process in a nutshell

And, that's the way I like it...uh huh uh huh...

I do see the point though. it can be rather infuriating going to find a good sound and then poof, gondie...that's why prefer my many flower approach

you have to exercise balance though, not just sims but all the other synths, samplers, daws, fx and what have you. It is indeed very easy to get caught in a 'learning software' quagmire.

That can be easily done---balance is key--your balance, not someone else's though...