use of moving a chord in 3rds

[wrench45us]

Coltrane's 'Giant Steps' created a framework for moving a chord progression in 3rds. So I wasn't surprised when I looked at Miles Davis' 'Four' to see that riff-based song moving in thirds. Though it seemed that it was often just dropping the root down a third to maintain the same upper notes so the riff could proceeed. But still some 'opportunity' for major/minor shifts that a simple ii V I doesn't provide

Then came across '(You came to me from) Out of Nowhere' from Johnny Green 1931 (Bing Crosby's 1st hit apparently)
opening
Gmaj7 Bbm7 Eb7
Gmaj7 Bm7 E7

and then to Am which is the ii in the G key. The song still moves around with Bm and E7 backl to Am and eventually to the Am D7 Gmaj7 (ii V I) we might expect.
So how might one think about a theoretical framework for the opening -- and that slinky 3rd change? This was an era when jazz chords and blue notes were working their way into popular songs, but this seems well ahead of its time.

[Ogg Vorbis]

Holy crap!!!

I have been totally baking on this idea of Chromatic Thirds lately! In fact for the last year I have written both 'legit' and pop-oriented things that emphasize these root movements.

Also I have been working off of this sheet:

http://danadler.com/misc/Cycles.pdf

The cycles exercises are a really unique way of getting insight into developing what I call "wormholes" from one key to another in the form of cadences.

When I looked at the opening changes to your Johnny Green tune, I thought of the chromatic cycle. So after the Gmaj7 the shift is a ii V in Ab. Which makes sense, if the tune is called "Out of Nowhere" and it's about being surprised in love that there are chromatic cadences that come "out of nowhere."

I do not know if I have that song in any of my books, but where do the changes go after Eb7? Does it go straight back to the I iii V7/ii ii V I?

[seacouch]

You might also like the bridge to "Have You Met Miss Jones".

[wrench45us]

I do not know if I have that song in any of my books, but where do the changes go after Eb7? Does it go straight back to the I iii V7/ii ii V I?

here's a link with more detailed treatment than in the Real Book
the real book arrangement follows closer to the chords listed on the 2nd line

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mt ... =MN0029346

the two sets of opening phrase has a lot to do with if the f the 7 in the original key stays at f# in the 2nd phrase or drops to f in the 1st
so it establishes a key and then immediately seesm to move elsewhere

and here's a link with more academic thinking (scroll down on the left side Music Analysis) that I'll have to look at closer this evening

http://www.jazzstandards.com/compositio ... owhere.htm

the whole movement by 3rds is relatively smootyh but can get you to some interesting sopaces in a hurry, esp if the whole major/minor shift is involved

and thanks seacouch I'll be checking out your suggestion

[wrench45us]

and here's 'Four' a little trickier

http://www.songtrellis.com/picture$775

[Ogg Vorbis]

and here's 'Four' a little trickier

http://www.songtrellis.com/picture$775

Those changes are a good example of what I have been thinking about lately in terms of "broken cadences" (my word, don't bother looking that up in university textbooks).

You have several types of cadences involving 2 5 1 and many partial or broken cadences involving 2 5's in a series.

A really typical series in jazz involves something like this:

Fm7 Bb7 Gm7(-5) C7(-9)

and then it usually does a turnaround back to the tonic.

It's a 2 5 in the tonic, followed by a 2 5 in the key of the dominant. That's what I mean when I say "broken" but it could be called "incomplete" or "half cadences" or something.

But you can string 2 5's in more remote keys too. In fact I run across things like this in standards:

Fm7 Bb7 Ebmaj7 F#m7 B7 Emaj7 Gm7 C7(-9) Fm Bb Ebmaj7

...Which is a chromatic series. If you leave out the 1 in each cadential series, you get what I believe is going on in Four.

It's kind of like a tonal roller coaster ride...you are headed here but then you're faked out and you cut left, then down, then up....

I'd love to keep the discsussion going and hear other people's opinion about what's happening in these changes.

[wrench45us]

what you call broken cadences I believe are called 'backfilling' in some texts

but when they're strung together for so long that the original destination is no longer in mind, I find it hard to call it backfilling

I think what you say about 'Four' is correct, but what get thrown like in the first 8 bars the Ab7 to the Fm7 to Abm7 to Db7 -- those 4 chords could just be moving the root around by a 3rds they could all share F Ab C more or less -- with the major/minor shift thrown in on that Ab7 (if it were 6th F)
so there seems to be some 3rd movement
I'll have to think about how the ii V thing overlays that

[psenior]

Another way to look at Gmaj7 Bbm7 Eb7 is that the Bbm7 is the b5 substitution for Em7 and the Eb7 is the b5 substitution for A7. I see it as them substituting the A7 for the naturally occurring Am7, and then doing the b5 sub on top of that. It changes the typical 1 6 2 5 progression into a 1 b3 b6 b2 progression, which is a fairly common jazz turnaround, but usually with slightly different chords.

I think the analysis at jazzstandards.com is correct, but if I were to play this tune, I'd mainly think about backcycling as you mentioned.

When I get chord changes for songs that I don't quite understand, I try to do research on them to make sure I have the correct changes. Real Books are full of errors. Usually you'll have the composer's version, then a version that is commonly played at jam sessions.

[wrench45us]

thanks psenior
thoughtful response gives me a different view