Electri6ity

[juliansader]

Hi Benjamin,


I am still trying to get a direct answer to my original question:

1) Do the DI examples that I posted above sound the way that they are supposed to sound, or is there something wrong with my system/setup? (I.e. will there be better, seamless morphing if the same MIDI was played on your own personal DAW?)


Assuming that my examples are indeed correct (as I am beginning to suspect they are), there are two follow-up questions:

2) Could you please explain why Electri6ity's supposed "revolutionary Articulation Morphing Technology (A.M.T.)" does not give "seamless morphing from dead mute to sustain" as promised in Electri6ity's product description? What did Vir2 really mean by this description (and by your own posts on other threads that "The morphing in Electri6ity is much more advanced than simply adding some Kontakt FX")?

3) Which articulations in Electri6ity can in actual fact be seamlessly morphed into one another?

[dynamitec]

1) Yes, with everything off it supposed to sound that way
2) Electri6ity with humanzing on has seamless morphing in a musical context. If you are trying to play things with Electri6ity which are (pretty much) impossible to play on a real guitar, it won't give you the results you are looking for.
3) Dead Muted<>Sustain, in musical context and in a way real guitarist do it. Sustain<>Harmonics, in musical context plus all articulations have velocity morphing (VMT).

It would be much easier for me to help you, if you would post a musical example of something you want to play with Electri6ity but you can get the result you want, instead of posting theoretical examples of things no guitarist would be able to play that exactly or would play that way, anyway. To me your posts have a rather nitpicking character, especially since you are the first person here, who complains about AMT and VMT (but it's also possible, that I get your tone wrong, because I'm not a native english speaker).

Two things you have to keep in mind: the dynamic range on a electric guitar is rather limited, so the differences are more or less subtle till you play the guitar through an guitar amp. Take all the noises for example. They are pretty much inaudible unless you crank the gain up. It's the same with dead muted to sustain. The differences are much bigger (especially in the dead muted <> muted range), if you play them with more gain.

I made two very quick examples, to show you what I mean (please right click + save the file, since listening in browser something doesn't seem to work or only 2 or 3 secs are played):

Muted <> Sustain:
http://www.benjaminstelzer.de/demo_new/MutedTest.mp3
What are you missing here in the transition between muted and sustain?

Velocity:
http://www.benjaminstelzer.de/demo_new/VelocityTest.mp3

[dynamitec]

Not yet! But I trust that I will be very satisfied as soon as I learn how to switch on AMT morphing. (And when all the other questions that I sent to Vir2's customer support are also answered.)

Feel free to post them here! I'll be happy to answer them!

[juliansader]

Not yet! But I trust that I will be very satisfied as soon as I learn how to switch on AMT morphing. (And when all the other questions that I sent to Vir2's customer support are also answered.)

Feel free to post them here! I'll be happy to answer them!

Thanks, here is the message that I sent to Vir2's customer support:

Hi again,

I would appreciate it very much if you could help me with the following loooong list of questions:

1) What is the preferred way to contact Vir2 for support: via this contact form, or via one of the internet forums such as KVR or VI-Control? Does Vir2 have an official sub-forum at one of these forums? Or perhaps a preferred 'semi-official' support thread, such as the one to which I posted previously?

2) Could you please explain the difference between the two options for the "Tone|Hammer Ons/Pull Offs" setting, namely "Default" and "HO/PO Played after Sustain Note"?

3) As far as I could see, the Fretboard does not distinguish between a HO/PO and tapping. Is there a way to be certain when a HO/PO is played and when a note is tapped?

4) Could you please also explain the three options for the "Legato|Mode" setting? As far as I can see, "Legato I" means that a sequence of overlapping notes starts with a sustain and then continues with HO/PO, while "Legato II" means that the sequence starts with a HO/PO (or perhaps tapping) instead of a sustain. However, I am not sure about the difference between the "Legato II" and "Tapping" modes.

5) Does the setting "Playing|Switch Sustain To Hammer On/Pull Off" also activate Tapping? If it does, when will a note be tapped and when will a HO/PO be played?

6) In the previous setting, what is the difference between Mode I and Mode II?

7) Is it possible to humanize the noise volume so that each note does not get the same noise level?

8 ) Would it be possible to send me list of all the FX of keyswitch F0? I am unfortunately not a guitarist, so I cannot recognize each of the techniques by ear. When I notate a composition for live playing, I will need to specify each technique.

9) What exactly does the "Guitar Tone" setting in the Performance tab refer to?

10) In another forum thread (http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4158900) the technique of bending a single string while playing two notes has been discussed. I was pleased to see that it will be easy to add this capability to the next update. A related technique is vibrato on only selected strings. At present, when vibrato is activated, all the strings are played vibrato - even the open strings!

11) What is the difference between the "Releases|Volume" setting in the Settings tab, and the "Volume releases" in the Performance tab?

12) I would like to achieve the sound that can be found in the following mp3 at 13-14 seconds (when the guitar starts playing):
http://www.theodorkrueger.com/main/musi ... f_time.mp3
If I am not mistaken, it is the sound of quick slides up and down the fretboard. I have tried to emulate this sound by using the "Slide up 1 frets" and "Slide down 1 frets" keyswitches, but these sound are too slow and not 'aggressive' enough. I have also tried to emulate this sound with Electri6ity's slide noise by alternately playing notes at high and low positions on the fretboard, but the slide noise is much too soft.

13) And lastly... Benjamin mentioned in one of the forum threads that if users need MIDI files to start playing with Electri6ity, we should write a email to the Vir2 support. I would very much like to study the following demos: "Power Metal Demo", "MEdley of Famous Riffs and Solos" and "Darkroom". I would be delighted if you could send me the MIDIs of these demos, together with info on the amp sim settings used.


Thanks!

Julian

[dynamitec]

1) What is the preferred way to contact Vir2 for support: via this contact form, or via one of the internet forums such as KVR or VI-Control? Does Vir2 have an official sub-forum at one of these forums? Or perhaps a preferred 'semi-official' support thread, such as the one to which I posted previously?

For Electri6ity this thread is the quickest way to get answers to your questions

2) Could you please explain the difference between the two options for the "Tone|Hammer Ons/Pull Offs" setting, namely "Default" and "HO/PO Played after Sustain Note"?

If you select the hammer on/pull off articulation via keyswitch you can choose which samples are used. HO/PO Played after Sustain Note (which are used for legato playing / trills) or HO/PO (which are used for tapping).

3) As far as I could see, the Fretboard does not distinguish between a HO/PO and tapping. Is there a way to be certain when a HO/PO is played and when a note is tapped?

No. Tapping means that you are playing hammer on and pull offs only, so HO/PO is the correct way to visualize that.

4) Could you please also explain the three options for the "Legato|Mode" setting? As far as I can see, "Legato I" means that a sequence of overlapping notes starts with a sustain and then continues with HO/PO, while "Legato II" means that the sequence starts with a HO/PO (or perhaps tapping) instead of a sustain. However, I am not sure about the difference between the "Legato II" and "Tapping" modes.

Legato I: Everytime a new string is selected in a legato sequence the engine starts with a sustain note, all notes after that are either hammer ons or pull offs. Use this for typical legato solo playing.

Legato II: Everytime a new string is played the engine starts with a tapped hammer on, all other notes are legato hammer ons / pull offs. Use this for Jennifer Button, Alan Holdsworth or Vinnie Moore like legatos.

Tapping: All notes are tapped. No legato type hammer ons/pull offs are used. Use this for typical tapping parts (e.g. Eddie Van Halen)

5) Does the setting "Playing|Switch Sustain To Hammer On/Pull Off" also activate Tapping? If it does, when will a note be tapped and when will a HO/PO be played?

This setting won't activate tapping. It actiaves the typical HO/PO mixed with sustain notes if you are playing fast on a guitar (aka econmony picking).

6) In the previous setting, what is the difference between Mode I and Mode II?

The difference is, that Legato Mode I and II makes a difference only if you select 'Legato' mode. The HO/PO in the previous settings are used to simulate economy picking in 'Solo' mode. So if you are playing very fast HO/PO are used instead of sustain notes - even if you are not in legato mode! They also have a bit more attack than in legato mode. So there is a slight tonal diffence, too.
To test this, setup a rather high value in the previous setting and play a fast run. First in legato mode, after that in solo mode. You'll see that both are using HO/PO, but it sounds a bit different.

7) Is it possible to humanize the noise volume so that each note does not get the same noise level?

Humanize volume and velocity also affects the volume of the noises.

8 ) Would it be possible to send me list of all the FX of keyswitch F0? I am unfortunately not a guitarist, so I cannot recognize each of the techniques by ear. When I notate a composition for live playing, I will need to specify each technique.

I'll have to write that list.

9) What exactly does the "Guitar Tone" setting in the Performance tab refer to?

It's the tone poti you'll find on electric guitars. If you set it higher, the tone gets warmer and more mellow (less harsh).

10) In another forum thread (http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=415 8900) the technique of bending a single string while playing two notes has been discussed. I was pleased to see that it will be easy to add this capability to the next update. A related technique is vibrato on only selected strings. At present, when vibrato is activated, all the strings are played vibrato - even the open strings!

Added to the feature request list.

11) What is the difference between the "Releases|Volume" setting in the Settings tab, and the "Volume releases" in the Performance tab?

The volume settings in the performance tab is the master volume (releases and noises). You can fine tune them in the settings tab. So if you set the release volume to 50% in the settings tab and the master release volume is 50%, the release noises are played at 25% volume. Same for noises.

12) I would like to achieve the sound that can be found in the following mp3 at 13-14 seconds (when the guitar starts playing):
http://www.theodorkrueger.com/main/music/theok_the _secret_of_time.mp3
If I am not mistaken, it is the sound of quick slides up and down the fretboard. I have tried to emulate this sound by using the "Slide up 1 frets" and "Slide down 1 frets" keyswitches, but these sound are too slow and not 'aggressive' enough. I have also tried to emulate this sound with Electri6ity's slide noise by alternately playing notes at high and low positions on the fretboard, but the slide noise is much too soft.

The link unfortunately doesn't work.

Edit: it works now, there was an additional space. Hm, I'm not sure what exactly you mean. To me it sounds like a very strong vibrato? Did you try to achive that effect with pitchbend?

[juliansader]

2) Could you please explain the difference between the two options for the "Tone|Hammer Ons/Pull Offs" setting, namely "Default" and "HO/PO Played after Sustain Note"?

If you select the hammer on/pull off articulation via keyswitch you can choose which samples are used. HO/PO Played after Sustain Note (which are used for legato playing / trills) or HO/PO (which are used for tapping).

Do I understand correctly the following correctly?
- the "Default" setting therefore means that the Tapping samples/timbre will always be used (in POLY and SOLO modes) when the HO/PO articulation is selected via keyswitch.
- the "HO/PO Played after Sustain Note" setting means that the normal HO/PO samples/timbre will be used.

Does this setting also affect the timbre of the legato HO/POs in LEGATO mode (as referred to question 4 above) and the HO/POs that are activated by the setting "Playing|Switch Sustain To Hammer On/Pull Off" (as referred to in question 5 above)?

6) In the previous setting, what is the difference between Mode I and Mode II?

The difference is, that Legato Mode I and II makes a difference only if you select[...]

Sorry - I was actually referring to the Mode I and Mode II of the "Playing|Switch Sustain To Hammer On/Pull Off" setting.

12) I would like to achieve the sound that can be found in the following mp3 at 13-14 seconds (when the guitar starts playing):
http://www.theodorkrueger.com/main/music/theok_the _secret_of_time.mp3
If I am not mistaken, it is the sound of quick slides up and down the fretboard. I have tried to emulate this sound by using the "Slide up 1 frets" and "Slide down 1 frets" keyswitches, but these sound are too slow and not 'aggressive' enough. I have also tried to emulate this sound with Electri6ity's slide noise by alternately playing notes at high and low positions on the fretboard, but the slide noise is much too soft.

The link unfortunately doesn't work.

Edit: it works now, there was an additional space. Hm, I'm not sure what exactly you mean. To me it sounds like a very strong vibrato? Did you try to achive that effect with pitchbend?

I will upload an short excerpt of this mp3 to isolate just the sound that I am referring to. In the meantime, I am also very interested in whether Electri6ity can play tremolos while playing slides:

Is it possible with Electri6ity to play tremolos during slides?

A perfect example of the sound that I am thinking of, is Dick Dale's version of the Misirlou (the well-known Pulp Fiction theme):

[juliansader]

To me your posts have a rather nitpicking character, especially since you are the first person here, who complains about AMT and VMT (but it's also possible, that I get your tone wrong, because I'm not a native english speaker).

Whoa, hold on there. This is a strange and rude thing to say.

Firstly, I think my previous posts have all been very polite. In fact, much more polite than some of the other users on this thread, and also more polite than your own defensive, evasive and unhelpful posts.

Secondly, how on earth can it be 'nitpicking' when a user inquires about how to use one of the supposed MAIN FEATURES of Electri6ity, namely its "revolutionary Articulation MORPHING Technology"? Is your standard of truth (in advertising) so low that you think it is 'nitpicking' when one of the supposed main features of your product turns out to be BOGUS?

I am also surprised that I am the first to notice (on this forum, at least) that Electri6ity does NOT actually have articulation morphing that it claims to have. If someone had pointed out these bogus claims to me, I would not have bought the product.

1) Yes, with everything off it supposed to sound that way
2) Electri6ity with humanzing on has seamless morphing in a musical context. If you are trying to play things with Electri6ity which are (pretty much) impossible to play on a real guitar, it won't give you the results you are looking for.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. Morphing has a very specific meaning in the context of sample libraries, and it has nothing to do with amps or playing in a 'musical context'. (Especially not when you yourself compare it with Kontakt's AET, and claim that it is 'much more advanced'.)

What you are saying is just as disingenuous as if somebody tries to tells me:
- This piano VST (which actually only has 5 velocity layers) has SEAMLESS velocity layers - but only if it is flooded with lots of reverb so that you can't hear the original samples.
- Or: this trumpet library has perfect SAMPLED legato - but only if you play it softly together with Hollywood Strings in a 'musical context' so that you can't hear the lack of legato transitions.

I made two very quick examples, to show you what I mean (please right click + save the file, since listening in browser something doesn't seem to work or only 2 or 3 secs are played):

Muted <> Sustain:
http://www.benjaminstelzer.de/demo_new/MutedTest.mp3
What are you missing here in the transition between muted and sustain?

What I am missing is all the in-between layers. This example is as useless as when somebody plays me 5 notes from a piano sample library that only has 5 velocity layers, with one note coming from each layer, and then asks me: what am I missing?

It would be much easier for me to help you, if you would post an musical example of something you want to play with Electri6ity

Sure. In my second post in this thread I have already asked whether Electri6ity can play continuous tremolos during slides. The example that I gave was Dick Dale's electric guitar arrangement of the Misirlou, which is the well-known Pulp Fiction theme. The following Youtube video is a cover version that nicely shows the actual guitar technique:

[progtronic]

@juliansader:

I believe that kontakt gives you many basic starting points.. for things like sample morphing, fx, beat slicing, etc.. and lets you expand upon these stock features with an extensive scripting system. essentially giving you the ability to re-program and program new features beyond its stock capabilities.

I'm seeing this a lot with many of the new kontakt 4 instruments being released these days.

electri6ity seems to have done this as well.. and this is where the 'revolutionary' part comes in, with many things uniquely scripted specifically for electri6ity and it's sample library.

I understand your frustration regarding this product.. many of us have expressed our concerns, opinions and desires in this thread as well.. but your prodding is bordering on trolling.. and comes off bad in regards to trying to get the answers you desire.

realize that the people you're trying to get answers from.. are just folks, really trying to help you. not all of them are gonna have the answers you're looking for.

now, regarding the morphing.. I have no problems hearing the smooth morphing effect, you seem to not be hearing. from ghosts, to mutes, to picks. realize that at some point, in between those playing techniques.. there has to be an eventual, obvious change from one timbre to the other.. else it would sound like a piano, with almost no color changes at all, through the entire velocity range.

I suggest experimenting with the many features, and compose some short pieces. tweak things as you go. I can say from my own experience that the pre-amp in electri6ity and whatever amp/cab sim you are using.. and your abilities with them.. make a huge difference in your final guitar tones.

I was convinced there was no way to get the metal guitar sounds I was initially trying for with electri6ity. eventually I began creating the exact chunky, muted tones that I was going for. it took a few weeks of experimentation.. but all the tools were there. I just needed to learn how to get there.

that said.. it's very possible you just can't possibly get that exact thing you're hearing in your head from this product. your needs are so specific, that you might be better off looking for a sample library of amped guitar loops and phrases to work with.

not saying you should give up on electri6ity.. just offering a suggestion to maybe look around a bit more, and see if there's anything else on the market that might help you get the sounds you're really looking for.

[dynamitec]

Sure. In my second post in this thread I have already asked whether Electri6ity can play continuous tremolos during slides. The example that I gave was Dick Dale's electric guitar arrangement of the Misirlou, which is the well-known Pulp Fiction theme. The following Youtube video is a cover version that nicely shows the actual guitar technique

Unfortunately not possible with Electri6ity. I'll add that to the feature request list.

[Malavoie]

Hi,

Since Benjamin says it is easier to get help with Electri6ity here than contacting Vir2 (which I tried), I will ask a simple question. Listening to the demos from Benjamin's and Vir2's sites, I hear very realistic bends. I mainly use Electri6ity for clean guitar sounds, going through amp sims, of course. For the life of me, I cannot do a bend that sounds very realistic. Using distortion, I can accomplish something that is believable, but not with clean sounds, especially with high pitched notes.

Would anybody have tips and tricks regarding bends with Electri6ity?

Thank you very much for your help!

[Kurari]

For the smooth bending issue, I'd say its all in how you have the pitch automation written.

At first I was using Guitar Pro to define the midi for bends and such but I found when importing into my Daw and having electri6ity play it that there were smoothness problems. However after looking at how the pitch automation I realized that it just wasn't specific enough so I had to magnify and make it smoother.

But geez a lot of good information out up there!

-juliansader

I get where your coming from, Electri6ity is a demon to tame. But the more info and the more you play with it the better it gets. Don't let your frustration get the best of you. I was in your same position 2 months ago.

What I did was basically get out the manual look at all the keyswitches and practice them. Basically just making 1-2 measure tracks playing with the different keyswitches to get the idea sound.

Unfortunately there still isn't a lot of info out yet. I'm writing some tutorials for Electri6ity but my non-studio computer I do my writing on doesn't record video's very well with 80% of my memory taken up by Electri6ity.

Hopefully all the answers will come.

So far even with testing there are only a "few" things I can't get Electri6ity to do in some way. Sometimes I have to use "midi tricks" but only a few things like a power chord bending only the top string.

Here's an example of how accurate it can be. This is just a cover of "Protest the Hero's" song "Blindfolds aside" but it has some rather advanced technuiqes in it that Electri6ity seems to do flawlessly [except my amp sim doesn't like fading notes...]





-Benjamin

Just a few quick questions.

A: Harmonic mute swips [whatever you wanna call them] Basically there like dead mutes over the harmonic 5th/7th. I can't figure out how to do this. For the ghost notes I shorted the midi to as short as I can but I can't seem to get the mute/halfmute/chucka to work well with the harmonic keyswitch. An example of this would be this song which uses it as a transition. Any suggestions?

B: Tapping. I'm using an odd tapping tech on a song where the riff is all on the lowest string and is tapped between 0/13/15 frets. Does the tapping only work properly on higher notes or am I missing something?

C: Octaves. Through my reserach I've found that doing your average 2 note octave that it doesn't seem to sound right. While testing out songs I noticed that ghost notes are needed in the midi to emulate the muted string between the octaves on a guitar is there any way the chord recognition script can fix this? It's not a huge issue it's just extra midi and editing but without those ghost notes of the muted open string it just doesn't seem to do it.

Thanks for your time.

[bill45]

Hey progtronic,
I just started working on take it back.
I'm getting levels of +6 dbfs, in cubase 5.With the channel and master faders at unity gain.What level are you getting in sonar.What is the sysex track for in the midi file?
How is your CD comming?
Thanks,Bill

[Mike Greene]

This is a little off topic, but I saw this at NAMM and it is very, very impressive sounding. I'd say you can do just about anything a real guitar player can do. More, actually.

[bill45]

Yeah Mike,
electri6ity is awesome.Benjamin's support is above and beyond the call of duty.

[progtronic]

Hey progtronic,
I just started working on take it back.
I'm getting levels of +6 dbfs, in cubase 5.With the channel and master faders at unity gain.What level are you getting in sonar.What is the sysex track for in the midi file?
How is your CD comming?
Thanks,Bill

not really sure what my levels were.. though I generally keep all my levels pretty low, then tweak everything with eq and compression in the final master.

didn't know there was any sys-ex data in that midi, so I'm not sure what it is. I just did a cut&paste of the midi data from a standard instrument track in sonar, into a seperate midi-exclusive channel.. then did a 'save as midi' from there. might be some stuff left over from automation elsewhere in the original track.

regarding the cd.. still playing around with new software. just got Ozone 4 and Cinematic Guitars. having a lot of fun with those.

wish Vir2 would re-visit 'Acoustic Legends HD' and 'BASiS', and create something similar to Electri6ity with them. I really like the all-in-one aspect of the basic guitars, with all the built-in, extended parameter tweaking and functionality.