How important is VST3 support for you as a customer

[botkiller]

I know a few orchestral composers who are looking forward to VST expression 2. It is the kind of thing that a lot of people using East/West instrument libraries seem to enjoy, because it lets them define what each instrument will do based on controller changes - but that's all happening inside the box in Cubase; the rest would be up to the composer to have an understanding of the many different expressions that one would normally use when composing a score on *GASP*... paper, for players to play. I admit that it's cool to be able to define how I want a VST to interpret and playback the notes based on rules that I set, if I know that I want strings to do this and horns to do that and so on, but I can't say that I ever see a reason for me to use it, nor for it to become the new standard. Besides, I've been able to do most all of this with MIDI for... well, since before I was producing music.

That said, I have to agree with what Admiral is saying; these are things I was recently wondering about with respect to the new VST expression engine - how is it going to affect plugin developers? This is always the battle though, isn't it? Each host wants to have its own upper hand on the other, in order to convince people to use it. Everyone says "It's more musical", or "Lightning fast editing", etc. etc. - but for those of us that have been working in these DAWs for years, is it changing much? Not really, not unless they're features we've been chomping at the bit to get.

So I suppose my feeling is, A.> VST3 isn't that important to me at all - and B.> If a developer feels that it's something they need to implement, and it won't break their brain to do so, go for it, if it'll help you get more customers, but I don't know that it's worth breaking yourself over.

Oh, and I have to say, that video was one of the most awkward promo videos I've ever seen.

[AdmiralQuality]

I admit that it's cool to be able to define how I want a VST to interpret and playback the notes based on rules that I set, if I know that I want strings to do this and horns to do that and so on, but I can't say that I ever see a reason for me to use it, nor for it to become the new standard. Besides, I've been able to do most all of this with MIDI for... well, since before I was producing music.

Right, but an orchestral score has a different copy for EACH instrument. So like I said, track each instrument individually and you're golden.

But to break 40 years of real-time performance technique in favor of manual scoring? What could they be thinking? (Answer, they're not paid to think. They do what their corporate masters, Yamaha, tell them to do. I just hope Yamaha has plans to invent a new type of controller to generate these currently impossible to play polyphonic multiple controller streams. So I can not buy THAT as well. )

Again, maybe I'm wrong, I'm just guessing based on what that (yes, awkward) demo video showed of Note Expression editing. Maybe they still have a "traditional" note/controller-stream editor as well? We can only hope...

[papatomany]

Couldn't care less, for the simple reason that I'm always way behind the rest of the world anyway.

[SJ_Digriz]

I tend to agree with AdmiralQ on this. If the expression editor was at the MIDI track level first, that would be the right approach. It's pretty much how most of us have asked for automation to be edited for both audio and MIDI for years.

However, this absolutely feels like an editor feature and not a musician feature. MIDI was/is a musicians standard. This seems like another step in eliminating external gear from the world. I guess the long term goal is to go see your favorite band live and they will all just sit in chairs with their laptops playing loops. Oh wait, DJ's already do that ...

[koolkeys]

Again, maybe I'm wrong, I'm just guessing based on what that (yes, awkward) demo video showed of Note Expression editing. Maybe they still have a "traditional" note/controller-stream editor as well? We can only hope...

Of course it's still there. VST Expression in C5 was just another option for how to display keyswitches and such. I can't imagine they took AWAY traditional CC editing and note editing in any way. That would be silly.

Brent

[AdmiralQuality]

Again, maybe I'm wrong, I'm just guessing based on what that (yes, awkward) demo video showed of Note Expression editing. Maybe they still have a "traditional" note/controller-stream editor as well? We can only hope...

Of course it's still there. VST Expression in C5 was just another option for how to display keyswitches and such. I can't imagine they took AWAY traditional CC editing and note editing in any way. That would be silly.

Brent

They took MIDI CCs right out of the VST spec (perhaps it's been put back in? I'm not sure at the moment as I'm currently too disgusted to bother to look). You have to do something like use the host to turn a CC into a "VST expression" I believe. Say goodbye to MIDI learn in every plug-in you ever used that had it.

If I'm wrong on that, someone please let me know. Again, I haven't been current on this since VST3 came out, accompanied by pages of complete and utter marketing B.S. and a chorus of almost unanimous rejection from the entire rest of the industry (as well as users who were knowledgeable enough to see through the B.S.). I stopped listening then, and my peers will let me know when (if ever) it's time to take Steinberg seriously again.

And what's it been, 3 new MAJOR upgrades of Cubase in less than three years? Talk about "buy it again for the first time".

[koolkeys]

Again, maybe I'm wrong, I'm just guessing based on what that (yes, awkward) demo video showed of Note Expression editing. Maybe they still have a "traditional" note/controller-stream editor as well? We can only hope...

Of course it's still there. VST Expression in C5 was just another option for how to display keyswitches and such. I can't imagine they took AWAY traditional CC editing and note editing in any way. That would be silly.

Brent

They took MIDI CCs right out of the VST spec (perhaps it's been put back in? I'm not sure at the moment as I'm currently too disgusted to bother to look). You have to do something like use the host to turn a CC into a "VST expression" I believe. Say goodbye to MIDI learn in every plug-in you ever used that had it.

If I'm wrong on that, someone please let me know. Again, I haven't been current on this since VST3 came out, accompanied by pages of complete and utter marketing B.S. and a chorus of almost unanimous rejection from the entire rest of the industry (as well as users who were knowledgeable enough to see through the B.S.). I stopped listening then, and my peers will let me know when (if ever) it's time to take Steinberg seriously again.

And what's it been, 3 new MAJOR upgrades of Cubase in less than three years? Talk about "buy it again for the first time".

Don't know about the whole taking MIDI CCs out of the VST spec, but I know that you can still have MIDI learn in VST3 plugs, and you say you haven't kept current.

Also, MIDI is a different spec. I don't see how anything is going to change. I think you may be jumping to conclusions here?

Brent

[Big Tick]

Want to see something funny ?

Here is something from VST 2.3:

Code: Select all

//----VstEvent Types-------------------------------
enum
{
	kVstMidiType = 1,	// midi event, can be cast as VstMidiEvent (see below)
	kVstAudioType,		// audio
	kVstVideoType,		// video
	kVstParameterType,	// parameter
	kVstTriggerType,	// trigger
	kVstSysExType		// midi system exclusive
	// ...etc
};

But in VST 2.4:

Code: Select all

enum VstEventTypes
{
//-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	kVstMidiType = 1,		///< MIDI event  @see VstMidiEvent
	DECLARE_VST_DEPRECATED (kVstAudioType),		///< \deprecated unused event type
	DECLARE_VST_DEPRECATED (kVstVideoType),		///< \deprecated unused event type
	DECLARE_VST_DEPRECATED (kVstParameterType),	///< \deprecated unused event type
	DECLARE_VST_DEPRECATED (kVstTriggerType),	///< \deprecated unused event type
	kVstSysExType			///< MIDI system exclusive  @see VstMidiSysexEvent

So they took it out...which is too bad, because defining kVstParameterType here all that was needed to allow sample-accurate automation of VST parameters...

This said, I think that by downloading the VST SDK, we all explicitely agreed not to say anything derogatory towards Steinberg.... so I'll shut ut now...

[AdmiralQuality]

Yep, that would have worked.(Though I'm of the opinion that all automation should be through audio channels. There's no conceptual difference -- except maybe a flag to say "no change" would be nice so you could skip an automation channel it if it hasn't moved from last known state in the current chunk.)

But whatever, for twiddling knobs, and assuming your latency is set low enough, VST 2.x parameter automation works just fine. But audio-rate parameter mod would be cool because then you could turn your host into a modular synthesizer!

And I'm not allowed to badmouth Steinberg? What did I sign that says THAT? (Sure you're not confusing it with the top secret, unobtainable, RTAS SDK NDA?) Anyway, they don't pay me enough to shut me up. (They don't pay me at all! Indeed, it's been the other way around.) And besides, this is all common knowledge.

[Big Tick]

And I'm not allowed to badmouth Steinberg? What did I sign that says THAT?

It is in the licensing agreement that comes with the SDK:

You should not bring the VST technology into disrepute, or damage its reputation in any way.

And I was just reminding myself, not telling you what you should or should not do.

[AdmiralQuality]

And I'm not allowed to badmouth Steinberg? What did I sign that says THAT?

It is in the licensing agreement that comes with the SDK:

You should not bring the VST technology into disrepute, or damage its reputation in any way.

And I was just reminding myself, not telling you what you should or should not do.

Yup, yup. And that was for VST 2.x technology that I clicked agreed on!

[Music Engineer]

steinbergs moves, policy and marketing around VST 3 were certainly not optimal, but to counterbalance a bit, i think steinberg did us all a great favour by bringing VST to life in the first place. so let's not turn this into a diffuse and general steinberg bashing fest.

peace

[AdmiralQuality]

steinbergs moves, policy and marketing around VST 3 were certainly not optimal, but to counterbalance a bit, i think steinberg did us all a great favour by bringing VST to life in the first place. so let's not turn this into a diffuse and general steinberg bashing fest.

peace

Hey I love VST 2.x. I love the 3.1 version of their hosts too. "Last known good version."

But they're not Steinberg anymore, they're Yamaha. And I have to suspect they're the ones pulling the strategy strings now. I can almost forgive the folks at Steinberg.

[kelldammit]

Of course it's still there. VST Expression in C5 was just another option for how to display keyswitches and such. I can't imagine they took AWAY traditional CC editing and note editing in any way. That would be silly.

Brent

what brent said. it's just an app/gui thing, that appears very similar in practice to sibelius' instrument definitions, except that it applies to the piano roll as well. it's just a different way to graphically represent the same keyswitch note/cc values we've been using forever now. the piano roll aspect is a nice touch, but otherwise, vstE is old news. all of the notation editors have been doing exactly this ever since they could play back sound (afaik, none use anything beyond vst2.x), and logic's score editor can do this too (au, no vst whatsoever).

insofar as composing, yes, each instrument would end up on its own staff anyway. for this purpose, while interesting and clever in principle, in practice, i'm not sure how useful note expression would actually be. i suspect that it'll be largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. at any rate, sb simply can't change how they're handling midi in any significant way.
even if a big name composer uses cubase, if their midi is gibberish to all of the co-composers/arrangers/copyists on their staff (who generally use different software, like notation editors to do the grunt work), how well do you think that would fly, given the ludicrously tight deadlines for film scores?

k

[AdmiralQuality]

Of course it's still there. VST Expression in C5 was just another option for how to display keyswitches and such. I can't imagine they took AWAY traditional CC editing and note editing in any way. That would be silly.

Brent

what brent said. it's just an app/gui thing, that appears very similar in practice to sibelius' instrument definitions, except that it applies to the piano roll as well. it's just a different way to graphically represent the same keyswitch note/cc values we've been using forever now. the piano roll aspect is a nice touch, but otherwise, vstE is old news. all of the notation editors have been doing exactly this ever since they could play back sound (afaik, none use anything beyond vst2.x), and logic's score editor can do this too (au, no vst whatsoever).

insofar as composing, yes, each instrument would end up on its own staff anyway. for this purpose, while interesting and clever in principle, in practice, i'm not sure how useful note expression would actually be. i suspect that it'll be largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. at any rate, sb simply can't change how they're handling midi in any significant way.
even if a big name composer uses cubase, if their midi is gibberish to all of the co-composers/arrangers/copyists on their staff (who generally use different software, like notation editors to do the grunt work), how well do you think that would fly, given the ludicrously tight deadlines for film scores?

k

The distinction is that apparently in C6 -- at least according to the demo video linked to above -- that they're going to split controllers into separate, distinct envelopes for *each note*. Not one channel-wide controller stream that affects every note, as with MIDI (with the exception of Polyphonic-Aftertouch, which IS different for every note in MIDI as well). This is a square peg/round hole mapping that's not interchangeable between the two editor modes. And all the problems that I pointed out will come into play. You won't be able to switch from one to the other, as they're conflicting paradigms.