Learning key structures
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- KVRer
- 13 posts since 14 Dec, 2010
How do you guys recommend I go about learning key structures? I'm thinking flashcards and a few hours of repetition, but I'm wondering if there may be some more "theoretical" approaches that will help me get what I'm learning rather than me just relying on memory alone
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- KVRist
- 179 posts since 11 Feb, 2008
What do you mean by "key structures"?
Do you mean key signatures?
Chords in a key?
For key signatures, a circle of 5ths chart (a complete and correct one) and flash cards would work fine.
Then you learn the notes of each scale.
For example:
A Major
3 Sharps
Those the sharps are F, C and G, meaning the scale is
A B C# D E F# G# A
You go through those steps for each key (Major AND Minor)
For Chords, start with triads and use a "number" system:
In Major keys:
I is Major ("I" roman numeral one represents the chord built on the first scale degree of the key)
ii is minor
iii is minor
IV is Major
V is Major
vi is minor
viio is diminished
Always, for all major keys.
So for A Major, the chords are:
A, Bm, C#m, D, E, F#m, and G#o
Now this is a "shortcut" because I can name the chord because for example I know iii in Major keys is a minor chord and the third note of A major is C#, so it must be C#m chord.
But this doesn't tell you what notes are in that chord.
You can back-calculate and if you know A Major has the notes A B C# D E F# G# and that any c-type chord must contain the notes C-E-G, then this chord in the key of A Major must contain the notes C#, E, and G# - i.e., all notes from the key.
It's good though to know all you chord independent of keys because you might be asked to play a bIII in A Major.
Additionally, minor keys are a little bit more involved so work on your major keys first, and then once you know them, a little adjustment makes minors easy to learn.
HTH,
Steve
Do you mean key signatures?
Chords in a key?
For key signatures, a circle of 5ths chart (a complete and correct one) and flash cards would work fine.
Then you learn the notes of each scale.
For example:
A Major
3 Sharps
Those the sharps are F, C and G, meaning the scale is
A B C# D E F# G# A
You go through those steps for each key (Major AND Minor)
For Chords, start with triads and use a "number" system:
In Major keys:
I is Major ("I" roman numeral one represents the chord built on the first scale degree of the key)
ii is minor
iii is minor
IV is Major
V is Major
vi is minor
viio is diminished
Always, for all major keys.
So for A Major, the chords are:
A, Bm, C#m, D, E, F#m, and G#o
Now this is a "shortcut" because I can name the chord because for example I know iii in Major keys is a minor chord and the third note of A major is C#, so it must be C#m chord.
But this doesn't tell you what notes are in that chord.
You can back-calculate and if you know A Major has the notes A B C# D E F# G# and that any c-type chord must contain the notes C-E-G, then this chord in the key of A Major must contain the notes C#, E, and G# - i.e., all notes from the key.
It's good though to know all you chord independent of keys because you might be asked to play a bIII in A Major.
Additionally, minor keys are a little bit more involved so work on your major keys first, and then once you know them, a little adjustment makes minors easy to learn.
HTH,
Steve
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 13 posts since 14 Dec, 2010
Thank you Steve pretty much exactly what I was looking for (yes I meant to type key signatures). Since I've taught myself theory I have sort of a weird assembly of knowledge and it's weird piecing it all together.
Do you recommend a good website where I can see what you posted for A major in every key???
A Major
3 Sharps
Those the sharps are F, C and G, meaning the scale is
A B C# D E F# G# A
Is there a good way to remember exactly how many half steps fall between each note in a major/ minor triad? Some little trick tied to the theory behind it?
I believe there are 3 half steps between the first and second notes in the major triad and 2 half steps between the 2nd and 3rd notes in the triad, and then you just sharpen the 2nd note in the triad for the minor triad, is this always going to be true?? Thanks!
Do you recommend a good website where I can see what you posted for A major in every key???
A Major
3 Sharps
Those the sharps are F, C and G, meaning the scale is
A B C# D E F# G# A
Is there a good way to remember exactly how many half steps fall between each note in a major/ minor triad? Some little trick tied to the theory behind it?
I believe there are 3 half steps between the first and second notes in the major triad and 2 half steps between the 2nd and 3rd notes in the triad, and then you just sharpen the 2nd note in the triad for the minor triad, is this always going to be true?? Thanks!
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- KVRist
- 70 posts since 7 Sep, 2010
For a major key, from the base (in this case A) the pattern is:
Tone (B), tone (C#), semi-tone (D), tone (E), tone (F#), tone (G#) , semi-tone (A).
This relationship of TTSTTTS is the same for all major keys.
HTH,
Kosh
Tone (B), tone (C#), semi-tone (D), tone (E), tone (F#), tone (G#) , semi-tone (A).
This relationship of TTSTTTS is the same for all major keys.
HTH,
Kosh
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- KVRian
- 1030 posts since 14 May, 2008 from Tralfamadore
http://www.apassion4jazz.net/keys.htmlbb11 wrote:
Do you recommend a good website where I can see what you posted for A major in every key???
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- KVRist
- 70 posts since 7 Sep, 2010
Also, I use the mnemonic "Father Christmas Goes Downstairs And Eats Breakfast" for the key signatures. This gives:
F C G D A E B
If I have a score with three sharps in the key signature, I go right three steps from C (as C has no sharps or flats), to get A major. If it has one flat, I go one step left from C to get F major.
Now, if I want to know the notes in these scales, I use the same mnemonic.
For the three sharps example, I work from the left to right to get the sharp notes as F#, C#, G#. This gives me A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, which as we have seen is A major.
For the one flat, I work from right to left to get Bb, so the scale is F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E.
This does get a little tricky in that any more that two flats give you a flat major - ie two flats is Bb major, not B major (which is five sharps) and three flats is Eb major. But as long as you know this, it makes sense and works.
I suggest you use this to produce flash cards for the signatures from four flats to four sharps to start with. Then once happy move on to minor keys, which I still go to a crib sheet when I'm using...
HTH Kosh
F C G D A E B
If I have a score with three sharps in the key signature, I go right three steps from C (as C has no sharps or flats), to get A major. If it has one flat, I go one step left from C to get F major.
Now, if I want to know the notes in these scales, I use the same mnemonic.
For the three sharps example, I work from the left to right to get the sharp notes as F#, C#, G#. This gives me A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, which as we have seen is A major.
For the one flat, I work from right to left to get Bb, so the scale is F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E.
This does get a little tricky in that any more that two flats give you a flat major - ie two flats is Bb major, not B major (which is five sharps) and three flats is Eb major. But as long as you know this, it makes sense and works.
I suggest you use this to produce flash cards for the signatures from four flats to four sharps to start with. Then once happy move on to minor keys, which I still go to a crib sheet when I'm using...
HTH Kosh
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 13 posts since 14 Dec, 2010
Very cool Kosh...Just to recap
C is always the starting point (because it contains 0 sharps/ flats), when you see sharps in the key signature you go right, flats you go left. More than 2 flats is a FLAT MAJOR.
Once you have ID'd the key you go left to right if sharp/ right to left if flat and count however many notes correspond to the amount of flats/ sharps there are in the key signature.
Is this system based on the circle of fifths?
C is always the starting point (because it contains 0 sharps/ flats), when you see sharps in the key signature you go right, flats you go left. More than 2 flats is a FLAT MAJOR.
Once you have ID'd the key you go left to right if sharp/ right to left if flat and count however many notes correspond to the amount of flats/ sharps there are in the key signature.
Is this system based on the circle of fifths?
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JumpingJackFlash JumpingJackFlash https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=44005
- KVRian
- 1227 posts since 10 Oct, 2004
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
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- KVRist
- 89 posts since 29 Mar, 2009
Cb is fairly rare, but there are situations/contexts where you want to use it rather than B. A simple example: Dbmi7 -> Gb7 -> CbMa. The context here is a "flat key", and surrounded by other "flat chords", so "BMa" would be technically incorrect.bb11 wrote:One other question that is coming up as I study, what the hell is Cb Major or even Gb Major...when would you ever need to write in these keys?
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 13 posts since 14 Dec, 2010
Wow this is all very helpful... I think it will really help me to get my ideas out easier once I have memorized the key signatures and become comfortable playing them seamlessly. Just out of curiosity how much practice/ time did it take you before you found your hands naturally falling onto the right keys when playing/ improvising? I want to set aside time for myself every day and set a reasonable goal
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- KVRian
- 610 posts since 6 Mar, 2005 from USA
My 2c: if you happen to have/enjoy a keyboard, a great way to get the key signatures and circle of fifths really down is to memorize the correct fingering for the scales. I can't explain why, but once I learned I learned how to play them, I completely internalized their relationships, which was just superficial recall before.
I guess I'm saying: you wouldn't ever have to write in the key of C# major unless you were just showing off, or if for some reason you found a chord progression you liked that was crazy plagal - something like I - IV/IV/IV - IV/IV - IV - I so you went C# - E - B - F# - C#).
Someone would get upset if they saw a chord progression go B - Db - Gb - B...they'd insist it should be B - C# - F# - B to follow the circle of fifths. And if there is a C# major chord, there has to be a C# major scale.bb11 wrote:One other question that is coming up as I study, what the hell is Cb Major or even Gb Major...when would you ever need to write in these keys?
I guess I'm saying: you wouldn't ever have to write in the key of C# major unless you were just showing off, or if for some reason you found a chord progression you liked that was crazy plagal - something like I - IV/IV/IV - IV/IV - IV - I so you went C# - E - B - F# - C#).
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- KVRist
- 70 posts since 7 Sep, 2010
Spot on... And yes, it is really an easy way to know the circle of fifths:bb11 wrote:Very cool Kosh...Just to recap
C is always the starting point (because it contains 0 sharps/ flats), when you see sharps in the key signature you go right, flats you go left. More than 2 flats is a FLAT MAJOR.
Once you have ID'd the key you go left to right if sharp/ right to left if flat and count however many notes correspond to the amount of flats/ sharps there are in the key signature.
Is this system based on the circle of fifths?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Circl ... luxe_4.svg
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- KVRist
- 179 posts since 11 Feb, 2008
Playing them will definitely help internalize them.bb11 wrote:Wow this is all very helpful... I think it will really help me to get my ideas out easier once I have memorized the key signatures and become comfortable playing them seamlessly.
Here's a little fun tidbit:
As the piano became a virtuoso instrument, and there started to be virtuosic composers (like Chopin and Liszt) composing very idiomatically for piano, they started to favor keys like Gb Major, B Major, Db Major, and so on.
Why?
Because your fingers fall more naturally on the keys.
If you play B Major with the correct fingering, your shorter thumb falls on the B and E (white keys) and your longer fingers (I, M and R) fall on the C#, D#, F#, G# and A# (the black keys).
If you move the white notes - B to C, and E to F, you're now in Db Major (do you see why?). In fact, some pieces by these composers modulate from Db Major to B Major (which is like Cb Major piano-key-wise) - looks funny on paper but when you play it, you realize only two notes are changing positions. If you change only the E to F starting from B Major, you're now in Gb Major (or F# Major).
Here's something else that may help you:
Really, the circle of 5ths is infinite - we just "close off circle" to avoid double accidentals.
So theoretically, G# Major would be possible - G# A# B# C# D# E# Fx - which is of course enharmonically Ab major.
Here's another little trick:
There are a total of 7 notes, so there can only be a total of 7 accidentals.
Eb = 3 flats
E = 4 sharps
Gb = 6 flats
G - 1 sharp
D = 2 sharps
Db = 5 flats
Do you see a pattern emerging?
There's only one "oddball":
C# = 7 sharps
C = 0 sharps or flats
Cb = 7 flats
Steve