How to MAKE a counterpoint

[pensaku]

You choose two different part and make a harmony of two parts and that's the counterpoint. It's not really about melody... you call it harmony if it's about melody... and it's not really about rhythms either... you call it polyrhythm or groove...

It's about TIME.



So... how to make it.


There are two ways of making it. First one is CUT and MOVE your NEXT PART or PREVIOUS PART of your melody line slightly to the left or right and stretch it or shrink it, bam you have a counterpoint and it's really about that, except in real life it's really complicated to describe.

Second one is same thing as first one except it's not from the same melody line it's from harmonic melody line.

Point is, it's about timing..... you play something sooner rather than later, or you play something later rather than sooner.


Sometimes, when you play a music inside of your head you find yourself out of tempo and parts end sooner or part ends later than expected but music keeps going inside of your head and next thing you know you play that music in counterparts! How awesome is that. I guess that's where they found a counter point.... or not.


Difference between counterpoint and chord or harmony is it's melody level(macroscopic) harmony. Each notes happens in the same time in counterpoint doesn't mean anything unlike chord but it's same thing as chord if you combine them in your head.

[JumpingJackFlash]

You choose two different part and make a harmony of two parts and that's the counterpoint. It's not really about melody... you call it harmony if it's about melody... and it's not really about rhythms either... you call it polyrhythm or groove...

A lot of mix-up here.

Harmony is a group of notes sounding at the same time which are musically significant.

Counterpoint is the relationship between (or the art of combining) two or more independent melodic lines.

The two are not mutually exclusive and often exist together.

[llatham]

Counterpoint is the combining of independent melodies. They should be lines with their own identity. They also traditionally combine to make good harmony (and what good harmony is changes from style to style).

When you move something later like you suggest, you end up with "imitation" which is a specialized type of counterpoint: imitative counterpoint.

If the imitation is identical, you get an even more specialized form called Canon.

If you stretch one, it's called augmentation. If you shrink it, it's called diminution.

For all of those, if the follower (the comes) starts later than the leader (the dux) then it's imitative.

However, both lines can start simultaneously, and if there's no other imitative relationship, and no other relationship besides "sounding good together", then it's just plain old Counterpoint.

All of these are examples of Polyphony.

Steve

[pensaku]

Thank you guys for straightening up.

Yep I just didn't study theories...


What I wanted to explain was how it works in the mind.
But my explanation was kind of shallow and unstructured.
And everyone knows how it works in the mind.... by hearing it. XD


What I wanted to say was, counterpoint is about two or more independent lines OR chopped parts in the same line that are messed up by the time(or order) and even though it's messed up it has its own decoding law, inside the mind.


Thanks!

[deleted]

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[shanecgriffo]

Yep I just didn't study theories...

so maybe you shouldn't give classes then?!

oh well, the thread got there in the end tho..
an evolving collaborative class ?

[A.M. Gold]

Yep I just didn't study theories...

so maybe you shouldn't give classes then?!

It was more like a spoken word performance than a class, though.

[warrior545]

counter point is about : melody, harmony, and rhythm all together,
but not by writing harmony, it about writing individual lines that together convey the same feeling (with different notes of course).

that's what makes it so complex.
some of the better ways to achieve counter point is play a chord progression and playing/changing individual notes, but this is not the way I would recommend.

here is what I recommend:
http://musicdm.wordpress.com/2011/01/02 ... -we-study/

[A.M. Gold]

I think the OP is trying to say that there should be a certain amount of rhythmic independence between the various lines of counterpoint because if all the notes occurred at the same time it would just be the same as a chord progression. That isn't necessarily the only feature of counterpoint. The lines have to have a horizontal "significance" as well as a vertical one, which means they have an independently melodic quality, but when played together, they create pleasing harmony.

[pensaku]

I think the OP is trying to say that there should be a certain amount of rhythmic independence between the various lines of counterpoint because if all the notes occurred at the same time it would just be the same as a chord progression. That isn't necessarily the only feature of counterpoint. The lines have to have a horizontal "significance" as well as a vertical one, which means they have an independently melodic quality, but when played together, they create pleasing harmony.

Added to that, Chords can be played independently too. When I make chordic lines I really just do that. It's just that, they are in different language or something. I don't go C->D->E I just compose one line, and in different ruleset I compose another and then it surprisingly becomes C,D,E.

In counterpoint, they can be in the same language(rullset), BUT different timing or different order. Counterpoint is like two or more people in the same team collaborating, filling empty gabs, or helping by explaining more, or even by competing each other (If you have heard Iannis Xenakis, in that music, they even fight to kill with each other but not REALLY), but that's what Counterpoint has similarity in the real world, Chords works that way too. What I wanted to say was how it works in the mind so you can compose a counterpoint by yourself.



Mess some things up inside your mind, and make some other line fix it, that's one way of making a counterpoint. (Or.... if you are Iannis Xenakis you try to kill other line with another line....and it doens't die it gets worse.. so on )

You can't be perfect. So it's always messed up. So compensate it with other line. But if you mess things up on purpose, it works too.

[jlocri]

After reading OPs post for the third time, I think I get it. He's explaining baroque style imitation, because that's what he thinks counterpoint is. I'm going to make a rash guess and say that he was looking for contrapuntal music and found Bach's fugues first, then assumed purely by ear that imitation was counterpoint.

It's going to take me a few more reads to understand his last post.

To pensaku, it's really nice that you aim to help, but it's very difficult to explain a concept that you've admittedly haven't studied. Especially when you said you don't know the basics of this concept.

but not by writing harmony, it about writing individual lines that together convey the same feeling (with different notes of course).

Later contrapuntal music, like from the late 1700s and the 1800s, it'd have both a harmonic elements (chord progression, succinct tonality, so on) and contrapuntal elements. You're on the right idea, but counterpoint is not always not writing harmony and writing individual lines instead, some composers can really draw an almost equal amount from both ideas to music.

[pensaku]

After reading OPs post for the third time, I think I get it. He's explaining baroque style imitation, because that's what he thinks counterpoint is. I'm going to make a rash guess and say that he was looking for contrapuntal music and found Bach's fugues first, then assumed purely by ear that imitation was counterpoint.

It's going to take me a few more reads to understand his last post.

To pensaku, it's really nice that you aim to help, but it's very difficult to explain a concept that you've admittedly haven't studied. Especially when you said you don't know the basics of this concept.

but not by writing harmony, it about writing individual lines that together convey the same feeling (with different notes of course).

Later contrapuntal music, like from the late 1700s and the 1800s, it'd have both a harmonic elements (chord progression, succinct tonality, so on) and contrapuntal elements. You're on the right idea, but counterpoint is not always not writing harmony and writing individual lines instead, some composers can really draw an almost equal amount from both ideas to music.

Oh you got me totally.

But not only in 1700s and 1800s, in 2011 there are many counterpoints in pop/indie music that doesn't sound like a counterpoint because it's chordic, so I don't think I don't know about that.

I kind of get confused if it's midways.... if it has used a chord and counterpoint it's both counterpoint and chordic..... so if it's both counterpoint and chordic it doesn't errr.... amplify???? the Counterpoint part. I wanted to distinguish counterpoint totally from a chodic view because essentially chord and counterpoints are really different.


So... there is in the musical mathematical toolbox, numbers(+,-,X,/,%(MOD),LOG,ETC), frequencies, tempos, volumes(on each note and on different lines), melodies, chords, rhythms, counterpoints, sudden distinguishable noises, different instruments, different jenre, different era, different author, different player, different songs, and all things you can think of just got mixed toghether in randomly fashion.. random chance musics...

Anything else in that manner?

[warrior545]

but not by writing harmony, it about writing individual lines that together convey the same feeling (with different notes of course).

Later contrapuntal music, like from the late 1700s and the 1800s, it'd have both a harmonic elements (chord progression, succinct tonality, so on) and contrapuntal elements. You're on the right idea, but counterpoint is not always not writing harmony and writing individual lines instead, some composers can really draw an almost equal amount from both ideas to music.[/quote]

chords are consequence of a correct contrapuntal parts,
later on composers indeed use chord progressions as a guide or better say direction.

I guess today most of the composers use chords as their guide and not counterpoint to write harmony.

both ways are good, although in my opinion counterpoint have more dimension than just using chords.

what I am trying to say is that anyone can choose the way he feels more comfortable with, if he achieve his goals that way,
as music teach us over the years: if it sounds good - use it.

thanks for the comment jlocri, it is nice to see more people know better about counterpoint.