Because I've been musically dry for the past few weeks I've decided to go back to my original instrument, the piano, and play around with it instead of simply being on the computer, experimenting with random sounds that for the moment seem to get me nowhere.
I am very aware that many great pop and dance songs have started out as just basic arrangements from piano, and I know for instance that many of Lady GaGa's songs started out being written from piano - however if her acoustic piano versions are anything to go by they end up becoming completely different when produced in the studio - e.g changes from a jazzy, almost tender arrangement to a big, crowd-pleasing house stomper.
So I'm wondering how to do this - how would one arrange a modern pop or dance song from basic chords and progressions tinkered on a piano? Especially for dance, as dance music is based on riffs and loops, how would you arrange the basic structure in such a way that they are not chordy, and are suitable for modern arrangements?
Arranging a full song from piano chords
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- KVRer
- 3 posts since 29 Jan, 2011
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- KVRist
- 169 posts since 23 Nov, 2009 from South Korea
I can't explain fully but basic is:
In the piano, chord lines are main actors. They form the music almost by only themselves.
In the dance music chords are smaller building blocks of bigger rhythms and loops.
In the piano music, things that are expressed by melodies are expressed by real melodies.
In the dance music, things that used to be expressed by melodies are expressed by rhythms and loops. And chord lines are just part of that loop.
It's really easy enough, dance musics are basically more rhythmical music than melodic music. But because it has huge melodic parts in its rhythm, how it SOUNDS SO GOOD matters a lot. It's melody inside the rhythm.
Finally, if you are asking how to compose a music... well.... there are lot of books..
In the piano, chord lines are main actors. They form the music almost by only themselves.
In the dance music chords are smaller building blocks of bigger rhythms and loops.
In the piano music, things that are expressed by melodies are expressed by real melodies.
In the dance music, things that used to be expressed by melodies are expressed by rhythms and loops. And chord lines are just part of that loop.
It's really easy enough, dance musics are basically more rhythmical music than melodic music. But because it has huge melodic parts in its rhythm, how it SOUNDS SO GOOD matters a lot. It's melody inside the rhythm.
Finally, if you are asking how to compose a music... well.... there are lot of books..
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- KVRist
- 211 posts since 28 Apr, 2009 from Ft. Lauderdale, FL
I will give you my quick thoughts on this. There are no rules in dance music. Make music that will get the ladies in the clubs and moving on the floor. 
Therefore, rhythm is much more important than melody and harmony.
If you have a traditional song written with chords for piano/guitar, I suggest you treat it the way a DJ/remixer would. In other words, don't be a slave to what's already been written. You may end up using very little of it.
If you want to get away from chords, then don't play chords. Play melodies or intervals from the scale or the key of the song instead. Find a "phat" synth sound that inspires you to be creative.
Make up a part with it that you like and record it. Is there a sample loop you like? Throw it in there. Do this a bunch of times. Then, start editing that mess until you start getting the vibe that you want. The song should be making you feel like nodding your head or thrusting your pelvis to the beat. 
Finally, compress and limit the hell out of everything so that it's super loud and distorted. The final mix should look and sound like one huge square wave. 
Drugs and alcohol have never helped me creatively, but for others it seems to be an essential part of the process.
Therefore, rhythm is much more important than melody and harmony.If you have a traditional song written with chords for piano/guitar, I suggest you treat it the way a DJ/remixer would. In other words, don't be a slave to what's already been written. You may end up using very little of it.
If you want to get away from chords, then don't play chords. Play melodies or intervals from the scale or the key of the song instead. Find a "phat" synth sound that inspires you to be creative.
Make up a part with it that you like and record it. Is there a sample loop you like? Throw it in there. Do this a bunch of times. Then, start editing that mess until you start getting the vibe that you want. The song should be making you feel like nodding your head or thrusting your pelvis to the beat. Finally, compress and limit the hell out of everything so that it's super loud and distorted. The final mix should look and sound like one huge square wave. Drugs and alcohol have never helped me creatively, but for others it seems to be an essential part of the process.
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
I have to say I didn't glean too much from that either.michi_mak wrote:and i couldn't agree morepensaku wrote:I can't explain fully...
seriously : if you can't explain it don't do it
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
The post that followed this was either a practical joke or...psenior wrote:I will give you my quick thoughts on this.
...or damn, I just don't know what to think.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
Getting back to the OP's question: I think it's going to come down to how big of an ensemble you want to arrange for. You are going to be looking at three main areas of the piano keyboard, so to speak---bass line, top line melody, and middle section chords. So think in terms of those three regions when deciding how to break up the arrangement. You might preserve the chord progression on a keyboard, give the top line to a singer, and have a bass guitar or mono synth do the bass line. You could also chart out the chords for standard guitar voicings once you have them all down.
I think things get a lot more complicated when you want to get something like a brass ensemble or even a full orchestra in, because you are going to be sitting there figuring out how chords have to be voiced to fit into the range of each group of instruments, and which instruments should take a part that was effectively not a distinct part on the keyboard because it was just blended into the chord progression. That takes a lot of experience and skill (which I don't have) and I think that's why some people get paid specifically to do those kinds of orchestration jobs.
I think things get a lot more complicated when you want to get something like a brass ensemble or even a full orchestra in, because you are going to be sitting there figuring out how chords have to be voiced to fit into the range of each group of instruments, and which instruments should take a part that was effectively not a distinct part on the keyboard because it was just blended into the chord progression. That takes a lot of experience and skill (which I don't have) and I think that's why some people get paid specifically to do those kinds of orchestration jobs.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRist
- 441 posts since 30 Apr, 2007
At the piano stage I would not be too worried about the details of arrangement. That can be handled better at the workstation where you don't have to play all of the parts at once! At the piano I would be trying to get down the basic composition. When it comes to composition, a pop song is pretty much always a pop song. Whether it is Frank Sinatra, AC/DC, or Lady Gaga, the basic form isn't all that different. Some music of house/trance/hip-hop does not actually have very much in the way of composition (just a short loop) and frankly I'm not sure how much you are going to be able accomplish for that type of arrangement sitting at a piano. But for music in song form you can get down your chord progression and melody for the chorus, and the one for the verse, lay out what sort of thing you want for intro, bridges, etc.
But the chord progression is an abstract thing. Don't get too caught up in how to make the chords sound good on a piano if the song is not for piano. Get your lead sheet so to speak and move on to the synths. For dance pop you will have your vocal or whatever melody, kick/snare/groove, probably some sort of rhythmic bass based on the chord roots, and after that it is really up to you. You could build in the harmony as rhythmic stabs, long pads, melodic riffs, or just leave the melody and bass to carry it. Honestly listening to Lady Gaga, sometimes the mix is really sparse. Sometimes less is more, or so I've heard. My arrangements are always a cluttered mess of weakness.
But the chord progression is an abstract thing. Don't get too caught up in how to make the chords sound good on a piano if the song is not for piano. Get your lead sheet so to speak and move on to the synths. For dance pop you will have your vocal or whatever melody, kick/snare/groove, probably some sort of rhythmic bass based on the chord roots, and after that it is really up to you. You could build in the harmony as rhythmic stabs, long pads, melodic riffs, or just leave the melody and bass to carry it. Honestly listening to Lady Gaga, sometimes the mix is really sparse. Sometimes less is more, or so I've heard. My arrangements are always a cluttered mess of weakness.
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- KVRAF
- 7879 posts since 16 Apr, 2003 from -on the outside looking in
Have a little mercy. He/She posted innocently enough. Perhaps there is a language barrier. (It's not like they put an Access logo on a Z3ta...)A.M. Gold wrote:I have to say I didn't glean too much from that either.michi_mak wrote:and i couldn't agree morepensaku wrote:I can't explain fully...
seriously : if you can't explain it don't do it
..what goes around comes around..
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
Well, we had two people in a row more or less dispense with the question and go on to describe how dance music just requires some loops and drums and you should limit it until it looks like a brick. One of them is from Korea so language may be an issue but he or she does appear to speak English competently. The OP did mention loops, but the nature of the question was about translating a piano piece to pop and dance.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRist
- 169 posts since 23 Nov, 2009 from South Korea
Well... I thought if I tell him that dance musics are made of rhythms and loops, then OP can understand that if he understands piano music enough, he can understand how it translates.A.M. Gold wrote:Well, we had two people in a row more or less dispense with the question and go on to describe how dance music just requires some loops and drums and you should limit it until it looks like a brick. One of them is from Korea so language may be an issue but he or she does appear to speak English competently. The OP did mention loops, but the nature of the question was about translating a piano piece to pop and dance.
My point was.... listen to the rhythms of house music, and then listen to the melodies of the piano music and then compare those two and then he can understand it.
How else are you going to explain that....
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
I understand, but it was a question about arranging, and arranging has been done starting with the piano for a long time, so I think the OP was trying to get some pointers on how to do that. It's not that helpful to say "just use loops" when they are asking how to make a dance arrangement out of something they've already written on piano.
I couldn't really follow your wording that well in your first post, so maybe you were trying to cover that, but the second person that responded was saying incredibly unrelated things like "melody and harmony don't matter, you just need a beat so girls will shake their asses", and I thought that was really pointless input for this particular thread, to be honest.
I couldn't really follow your wording that well in your first post, so maybe you were trying to cover that, but the second person that responded was saying incredibly unrelated things like "melody and harmony don't matter, you just need a beat so girls will shake their asses", and I thought that was really pointless input for this particular thread, to be honest.
"You don’t expect much beyond a gaping, misspelled void when you stare into the cold dark place that is Internet comments."
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
---Salon on internet trolls attacking Cleveland kidnapping victim Amanda Berry
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- KVRist
- 169 posts since 23 Nov, 2009 from South Korea
Well sorry there is this huge language barrier that I will never get through unless I have more time so... I started learning english only 10 years ago and I was not young enough to learn it so easily at that time and I wasn't a polyglot.A.M. Gold wrote:I understand, but it was a question about arranging, and arranging has been done starting with the piano for a long time, so I think the OP was trying to get some pointers on how to do that. It's not that helpful to say "just use loops" when they are asking how to make a dance arrangement out of something they've already written on piano.
I couldn't really follow your wording that well in your first post, so maybe you were trying to cover that, but the second person that responded was saying incredibly unrelated things like "melody and harmony don't matter, you just need a beat so girls will shake their asses", and I thought that was really pointless input for this particular thread, to be honest.
And... actually you translate piano music into house music, by translating what piano music "expresses" with melodies, into using rhythms and loops. You can't possibly know how to make piano music into house music unless you understand this. So I thought I was covering it all but I wasn't... it is not only my english it's also I'm not that thorough... yeah. But I can't think clearly when I'm writing in english so... that's my defense.
But when second person talked about drugs and girls I coulnd't agree with you more. I didn't even read it.... It's not total bullshit because house music is used in the clubs where people get laid and some people in the club use drugs and alcohols, but house music is not about that, reason that most of those musics are played in the club is because they want to listen to the music and be done with it instead of doing drugs and alcohols... well there are many reasons we listen to the music I can't cover it all but that's how it is in Korean clubs. Well it's the good side anyways.
So I think second person wanted to tell what house music is about... I don't know if it's a joke or really serious not something I never heard of in America it's called trash talk or so I heard. But point taken anyways.
All good, better if I was thorough enough.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 3 posts since 29 Jan, 2011
Thank you for all the helpful tips. To be clearer on the topic, I had asked this because I had exhausted my ideas of just sitting at the computer and playing with loops for dance music - however I was worried that by using the piano and basic chord progressions it would limit the way the song played out ultimately, and make it more difficult to create interesting harmonies and melodies, and instead of simply "implying" the chords through a sparse mix filled with stabs, rushes and slick basses I would fall into the trap of working too much around the chord progressions and making them too cheesy. However I wanted a more consistent songwriting method than just sitting at the computer playing with loops.
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- KVRist
- 169 posts since 23 Nov, 2009 from South Korea
Well.... you don't like "implying" but house music is all about "implying".... "implying" not only on one level but implying on multiple level. That's just my opinion.BassSaber wrote:Thank you for all the helpful tips. To be clearer on the topic, I had asked this because I had exhausted my ideas of just sitting at the computer and playing with loops for dance music - however I was worried that by using the piano and basic chord progressions it would limit the way the song played out ultimately, and make it more difficult to create interesting harmonies and melodies, and instead of simply "implying" the chords through a sparse mix filled with stabs, rushes and slick basses I would fall into the trap of working too much around the chord progressions and making them too cheesy. However I wanted a more consistent songwriting method than just sitting at the computer playing with loops.
Oh and you probably already know this but just in case....
Rhythm is like a chord. Multiple periods combined.
By the way you play it, it could sound like melody too.
Last edited by pensaku on Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:11 am, edited 3 times in total.