Putting 4/4 beats in 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

[RandolphCarter]

In an interview with DJ Shadow about Entroducing I read, he says:

FP: What I liked most was the way the beats were done on this album. Something new again. Though many people are experimenting with it, there is always something that hasnt been done.

Shadow: Yea I mean I am interested in sample culture as well. Sample culture is an extension of vinyl culture. I should say sample music really. My instrument of choice is a sampler. When I bought it it was brand new and its sort of a standart now. I have allways used instruments that are simple I'm not a technologically orientated person. I like to keep the musicmaking process very simple so its more grassroots. The technical stuff I save for the mixdown, but the actual creating process should be very simple. And I just want to be progessing with my instrument. There is no excuse to loop a four to four beat. Thats why I like on the album, and thats one of the things im proudest about, the experimentation with the timesignature. Taking 4/4 beats and putting them in a 3, 4, 5, 7. That takes a little bit more thought then just the press play. Hiphop has so much more to offer than its offering now. Whatever people call it I am just going to keep on doing it anyway.

What does he mean with "putting them in 3,4,5,7"? Does he mean the time signature? How do the melodies, chords and samples fit with that time signature? Wouldn't that sound odd and "not hip-hop" (for a lack of a better term). I mean, I can understand it for the "break" in a song, where he starts doing fancy things with the drums, but does he mean for the main rhythm?

Can anyone who likes his music (or any other stuff like what he does) point out an example of what he's talking about (like a song where he put the 4/4 beat in another time signature).

I just want to listen to what it sounds like to train my ear and recognize unusual rhythms.


Thanks!

[arbogast]

Maybe he means superimposing one time sig over another, which sounds more complicated than it is.
example: in 7/8 you repeat a figure thats 4 eights long. That way the figure occurs at diff places in the bar (up to a point)

Its also fun to superimpose odd meter lengths in reg 4/4.

But he could also mean grouping beats and/or subdivisions in said meters in order to have 4 groups per bar.
example in 5/4:
| 1/4. - 1/4. - 1/4 - 1/4 |

It suddenly occurs to me I ought to listen to the music before posting(?!??!!?)

sorry

[MaxSynths]

I guess he means superimposing one time sig over another, which sounds more complicated than it is.

Yes, agree. There is a song by Rondò Veneziano which has a time signature on the left channel and a different one on the right. If you listen to the separate channels it's like listening to two different songs; when L/R channels play together you can hear the "third" song. Great way to play sound illusions.

[jancivil]

What does he mean with "putting them in 3,4,5,7"? Does he mean the time signature? How do the melodies, chords and samples fit with that time signature? Wouldn't that sound odd and "not hip-hop" (for a lack of a better term). I mean, I can understand it for the "break" in a song, where he starts doing fancy things with the drums, but does he mean for the main rhythm?

Who can tell really, the statement as given makes no sense to me. If it's in 4/4, it's 'in 4/4'. He mentions keeping it simple, so the idea of working in more than one time signature simultaneously doesn't seem to follow, IME.


I can tell you what can happen objectively that's suggested by that comment. You can take the idea of 'numbers other than 4' in 4/4, by considering them as 'cross rhythms'. Triplets are *3 in the time of 2*, or 3 in the time of 4, etc. (Effectively one might say, here is more than one 'time', but more than one 'time signature' tends to become unwieldy mighty quick.)

You can do any number in the time of another number. eg., 5 in the time of 2, typically expressed as 5:2. The 5 is evenly spaced against the 2 'beats'. And once you have that, you can 'nest' things within either of these ideas.
EG: you can do triplets for each of the 5.

A phenomena that can happen especially with numbers that are closer in value, such as 5 and 4, 5 and 3, posed accurately against each other at the same time producing a third rhythm owing to the difference. I call it a difference rhythm.

9 is of course a fascinating number, it works as threes groupings but can be assymetrically split, 5+4. Take the idea of nesting: you have triplets, 3:2, with triplets nesting in the 3 to give you 9, and you can say '4+3+2=9' out of that result...

There is an African concept of rhythm you may find attractive: a compound time, ie., triple and duple time compounded (ie., inclusion of factors of 3 *and* factors of 2: 6 or 12 etc), posed against a deliberate assymetry.

Typically, 12 as 7+5. But one or another part of the drum choir is giving you the 3:2, 4:3 etc (cf., 'hemiola').

take say 12/8 as 8 dotted eighths {tantamount to a kind of 4/4 or 8/8} posed against 6 quarters but somebody is producing an effect of 7+5 by emphasis, for a very interesting syncope on top of the [4:3] groove
(the hemiola concept is a big part of a lot of Afro-Cuban rhythm and all this).