How to change scales in a song

[Majestic290]

If the chorus of my song is in "B minor" and I want to change to say uhh, G minor during the verse, is this harmonically correct?

The lower scale must be "harmonic" with the B minor scale right?

[trewq]

There are only 3 notes in common between B minor and G minor.
Doesn't seem like it would work, tho' I've seen certain midi files play all 12 notes within a few seconds!
You would have to really mix it up with some passive note playing. I would stick to scales with 6 or 7 notes in common between verse and chorus, and watch/work-in other accidentals if needed.

[Ogg Vorbis]

If the chorus of my song is in "B minor" and I want to change to say uhh, G minor during the verse, is this harmonically correct?

The lower scale must be "harmonic" with the B minor scale right?

What do your ears say?

[cryophonik]

I would stick to scales with 6 or 7 notes in common between verse and chorus, and watch/work-in other accidentals if needed.

One obvious and common exception being moving up a half-step or whole-step (e.g., in the last chorus).

And, while I agree with Ogg Vorbis that the ultimate determination is based on how it sounds, Bmin to Gmin is an odd one. Transpositions (key changes) are often set up by using a progression containing pivot chord(s) - chords that are common to both keys. In the case of Bmin and Gmin, the only chord that overlaps the two keys is Dmaj, which is the III chord in Bmin and the V chord in Gmin, so you could use that as your pivot chord, maybe build on it and make it a dominant V7 to resolve to Gmin, depending on the context of your chorus???

[trewq]

Are we to assume natural minors when someone writes B minor or G minor? - the relative minors of D and Bb Major?

I'm just wondering what scales we're talking about when you mention overlapping chords.

[ttw]

The keys b-minor and g-minor are pretty far apart; classically their (harmonic) relationship is sometimes termed "chromatic mediant." It's not wrong to use them together in a piece, just sometimes hard to make things sound convincing.

Possibly the introduction of a 4 or 8 bar bridge may be useful. Or just an abrupt jump.

You could also just walk down the cycle of fifths, b-minor, (B-major), e-minor, a-minor, D-major, g-minor (or with other major or minor stuff thrown in).

[Gamma-UT]

The keys b-minor and g-minor are pretty far apart; classically their (harmonic) relationship is sometimes termed "chromatic mediant." It's not wrong to use them together in a piece, just sometimes hard to make things sound convincing.

The mediant is one way into this - it's generally a good way to get into a distant key. If you're talking the harmonic minor scale, you get the leading tone for Gmin - which gives you a Dmaj chord for the dominant in Gmin. That Dmaj that pivots nicely into Bmin as its III chord. Moving to the v can then establish Bmin fairly (or you can do something else). I don't see a problem with the shift and, playing around just now, it sounded just fine.

What do your ears say?

Is the truth.

Generally, if you play something that seems to be outside the rules, you can generally find some piece of music theory that will justify it (should you feel the need to).

[Ogg Vorbis]

Generally, if you play something that seems to be outside the rules, you can generally find some piece of music theory that will justify it (should you feel the need to).

I haven't really found any "rules" at all. Sometimes I see people ask if a certain harmonic sequence or a tonal change is "okay." It is as though some feel that theory is a set of train tracks on which the train of music must ride.

I tend to look at my hearing, my inner sense of musicality and composition as the train tracks. The theory is the maps of different configurations of train tracks that have been laid down to offer knowledge and insight into how things might function and work well.

The method or theory must support the music, in my opinion. You don't need an authorized signed document to proceed from B minor to G minor. The theory might help you make the transition, but the transition in the end should be MUSICAL.

[Gamma-UT]

I think you've read more into the word 'rules' than I intended. I agree with you. However, what I've found is that every time I've stumbled across something that sounds good and seems to be outside conventional music theory, it's just that I haven't looked hard. Someone else has done it and found a way to justify.

I don't mean to imply that music theory is a set of rules. I don't believe it should be. However, it can be handy if you're wondering "what can I do next?" instead of blindly stumbling around the keyboard trying to find something. It helped in this thread. I took one look at the key relationship and thought: chromatic mediants, always handy when you need some non-threatening chromaticism.

[Ogg Vorbis]

It helped in this thread. I took one look at the key relationship and thought: chromatic mediants, always handy when you need some non-threatening chromaticism.

Gamma, I think you and I are looking at things the same way. I wasn't chastizing you for using the "r" word. My post was more "in general."

[Gamma-UT]

It helped in this thread. I took one look at the key relationship and thought: chromatic mediants, always handy when you need some non-threatening chromaticism.

Gamma, I think you and I are looking at things the same way. I wasn't chastizing you for using the "r" word. My post was more "in general."

No worries. I could just see in hindsight that there was another way to interpret what I wrote as "you need rules, just keep looking until you find the right ones".

[JumpingJackFlash]

If the chorus of my song is in "B minor" and I want to change to say uhh, G minor

Moving directly from the original tonic (Bm) to the new dominant seventh (D7) should be fine (as long as the part-writing is handled appropriately). (After the D7 comes the Gm obviously, then you have established the new key).

[ttw]

I'd like to add that there is a difference between whether this key change is structural or for adding color. If it's only for color (sort of like going up a second in a chorus repeat), just jumping to the new key is fine. If the key change is part of the basic structure of the piece, then a bit more care may be needed.

You can just jump the the new key (Beethoven does this in his sonata op 53; he does a few measures of C-major and then jumps to Db-major (somehow named Neapolitan). The abruptness of the key change is part of the structure.

In other pieces, composers find a way to move from one key to another. There are lots of ways. (There's a free online book called "How to Modulate" by Frank Shepard. It's also the earliest reference I can find to what is now called a secondary dominant; Shepard calls these attendant chords.) One can modulate around the circle-of-fifths, through augmented-sixth chords, through diminished seventh chords, etc. Whatever suits the material.

The term "structurally" is rather loose too. One can go from one key to another or wander or whatever sounds good. With the mediant (and a jump of a major third), one could move from b-minor to g-minor to eb-minor and back to b-minor (enharmonic of cb-minor) using the same root movements.