KVR Audio

Slate · Post by **Slate** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:28 pm

I completely agree with you... the advantage of having the console emulations in plugin form is that you can do a lot more with them than you can with an actual desk. If you have the CPU... I think its cool to chain VCC Channels with the first on Brit N and the second on Brit 4k.. then mix with them all on... what I found surprising about this was that I had to eq and compress things less because things seemed to just "sit" perfectly with not much fuss.

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:48 pm

Giancarlo:
I know that such threads usually drift into Nebula OT discussion/bashing, which is a pity. Each tool has their own strong points and weaknesses. Won't go into that here, but I was just curious since that old drama came up once more.

Zaphod (giancarlo) wrote: A client asked privately an oversaturated console coming from his own gear and we provided a 20 kernels emulation which is not completely perfect but NOT subtle at all (audio is completely destroyed by it).

Wouldn't 20 kernels eat a lot of CPU power and be totally impractical in a 32+ channel mix (plus FX channels and groups)?

Zaphod (giancarlo) wrote: For sure alessandro is interested in high-end consoles, tuned till perfection, and here his work. CDsoundmaster is providing completely different items (less subtle), and so analoginthebox (you'll never find something subtle coming from analoginthebox). A new developer, signaltonoize is releasing things which have a strong tone. All of them are more or less providing preamp/console emulations, and here I stop.

And I'm definitely thankful for all of them to even create such presets. AlexB created some interesting desk presets, analoginthebox some rare gems (the Siemens EQ ones), signaltonoize (vieris) created some "vintage equipment" and crazy transistor circuits (cool for oldschoo sound), etc. Without them, I think Nebula wouldn't be as popular as it is as of now. On top of that with the new AQUA engine (that I still haven't tested, though I have your "free" creation on my HDD) - definitely something to keep an eye on.

Like I said... both Slate Digital's creation and yours (AcousticaAudio) are definitely some interesting approaches to the desired "sound". No doubt about that. But like bManic said, it's also down to the CPU usage on large projects.

Then again, the final product is important, not what you use. I've heard outstanding, pure sample based productions that sounded as great as modern pop productions with real instruments. Same the other way around. The sky is the limit, and both you developers offer tools to us users to make it a tad more simple to reach that goal.

Slate wrote:Compyfox, I would recommend just slapping the VCC Channels on the first inserts, putting a mixbuss plugin on the master fader, and then mixing normally. If you do a mix this way, then bypass all VCC's, you'll hear that the plugins will add the console vibe without having to worry much about it.

Well, that's the thing I'm wondering and once wrote you about via mail/beta support. Should I "overdrive" the console. And if so, how much? What is the limit? What is the right way to do?

Personally I tried several aproaches and still can't live with the "fader between -20dBFS and -12dBFS position" while still overdriving the VCC MIX BUSS with about +2dBFS. Though this would be the "correct way" (according to many) in how to use a mixing desk (may it be analog or digital). The Mix Buss plugin is what puts everything together. The input plugins only apply subtle saturation and a certain EQ courve (at least beta2 ilok1), but the Mix Buss plugin adds the final touch on top of another EQ courve.

I know that most desks have a certain headroom before getting to hard clipping. And from discussions with a fellow KVRian I know that you usually aimed at that particular hotspot within that headroom back in the day (to have a soft clipping effect within that headroom). But wouldn't that be completely different in modern days where everything is overdriven (aka turned up as loud as possible), or mixing on pure digital desks?

It's not like you mix on an SSL, overdrive all channels on purpose, leave the master bus fader at unity, have a peak of about +10dBFS to get a certain saturated sound on the master bus - then turn down the conrol room and the to-tape to get a -1dB peaking signal in your DAW. That's just not how it works in the pure DAW realm. So the "mix and then bypass VCC" comment doesn't really apply and would be way too subtle as well.

This is why I made the null test back with beta2 ilok1 just to be sure my ears didn't fool me or anything. And to my liking, it was a bit too subtle. So I hope that changed with the final.

@bManic and Steven:
+12dBFS and +24dBFS boost before a VCC plugin, and then a gain compensation of about the same ammount post VCC again? Sure is a lot of overdrive if you ask me. Damaged more than doing good on my end. Then again, I'm still talking about an old beta.

I still miss to see the point of routing a Brit 4K into a Brit N plugin (same channel!), both with the same input (0 probably) and drive (0 again?) settings. Except for subtle EQ changes right from the start. Unless I miss something here...

Slate · Post by **Slate** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:54 pm

I remember a long time ago doing one of my first mixes on an SSL. I was mixing and realized that I was overdriving the mixbuss quite a bit.. so i turned down the master fader. Then i decided that this seemed like a bad idea so i turned down all the channels by 3db and put the master fader back to zero. But I noticed some of the "balls" of the mix got lost. So for a while, I would start a mix on an SSL with the master fader down a bit so I could slam the mixbuss a bit hotter without having to much output for the half inch machine two track master.

I don't usually do this type of thing anymore, preferring just to have a nice leveled mix on the desk.. which is why my only advice is to do what sounds good to you. I don't think its necessary to mix too hot into the master fader with the VCC mixbuss.. or overdrive the channels etc.. I prefer, and again there are no rules.. to simply put the plugins on the channels and then mix as usual. I'm amazed at how great my ITB mixing has become with the VCC.. if you saw the video, you'll know that i really created this plugin to cater to my own needs!!

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:05 pm

Saw the video, Steven, and I liked the dynamic inverview of both Fabrice and you. Then again, I'd love to see a "hands on" video of VCC, just to see "one approach".

Over the last years, I tried so many approaches and basically kept the "touch the master fader" thing until I bought a BCF2000 in early 2010. But I found out that controling my projects with a BCF2000 is a PITA at such low levels while leaving the master fader untouched. Unless I add a gain compensation plugin on the master bus (possible with internal 32bit float processing - else not). Though that is not optimal at all I think, but I have a slight better BCF2000 fader response and with the internal 32bit float processing...

Another thing I'm wondering is the "input gain". I remember the VU (PMM with a VU look) reacting a bit wonky with Beta2 (ilok1). Do you actually use the input gain to first level in your signal, then mix as you feel like (EQ, compression, FX), set the desired mix levels (faders) while aiming for a -1dB peak mix? Or do you pretty much leave the gain knob untouched?

The Drive (adding more saturation) is a different thing.

You see, a hands on video would be more than great and would also act as product presentation video. Or maybe I'm just not uber-curious, but confused as hell.

jkleban · Post by **jkleban** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:17 pm

Would love to know what desks are modeled in this product. I think I saw the 4K (easy one), what are the others? Are they all vintage?

Thanks,
Jim

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:39 pm

Pretty much all are obvious if you look at that:

Brit 4K is aimed at a large Solid State console (4000 series)
Brit N Discrete is aimed at a known british desk vendor starting with an N
US A discrete is aimed at a desk developer which has a focus on "Automated Processes"
And the symbol - well... take a closer look at Poseidon's weaponry...

I'd pretty much say they're all "vintage", yet still modern.

Dominus · Post by **Dominus** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:00 am

I'd really like to see an answer to this:

Dominus wrote:Had this in the other thread without seeing a response. You posted this on GS:

Slate wrote:
Now, the problem is with guys on PPC. The newer ilok will not work
with PPC Macs. So we think the fair thing to do is to offer you a
50% refund ($99), or you can take the free ilok and assume that
you'll be updating to an Intel Mac sometime in the near future. The
choice is yours. We know this is a bummer, and I wish there was some
other way, but there just isn't.

And I posted this here:

Dominus wrote:
Not that I'm one of those people, but anything less than a full refund would be considered theft in my eyes. These people weren't paying for development. They were paying for a product.
Just wondering if that was still your policy.

Slate · Post by **Slate** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:12 am

We will release a PPC version that will work on the ilok1 (or ilok2) and support it until June 21st, when we will end PPC support for good.

LGK_Dude · Post by **LGK_Dude** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:32 am

Any chance of getting some demo videos of the product in action. I liked the interview and thought it was very well done, but would LOVE to see it in use / how it works like UA does for their products.

And before people say (just demo it) I dont have ilok 2. Wish there was a way to demo it without ilok.

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:53 am

Compyfox wrote: +12dBFS and +24dBFS boost before a VCC plugin, and then a gain compensation of about the same ammount post VCC again? Sure is a lot of overdrive if you ask me. Damaged more than doing good on my end. Then again, I'm still talking about an old beta.

I only mentioned these large input numbers because I was talking about reverb channels. They usually are much lower in volume. The trick is to get those channel peaks slightly over 0dBFS. The difference between doing this and letting them sit at -20 or even -30dBFS is massive, especially if you run a lot of reverbs.

Cheers!
bManic

metamorphosis · Post by **metamorphosis** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:37 am

kmonkey wrote:It seems far easier to send email to all registered users in user database then to split thousand of beta user to non beta user IMHO.

Bitching much?
It seems far easier Not to send an email to all registered users. Because those people already have it.
It is clueless not to inform the beta testers, who've supported the company up till now, where to download the final version of the plugin they already paid for.

metamorphosis · Post by **metamorphosis** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:38 am

Slate wrote:Hi there, I thought that current customers know that updates are always available in their USERS area account

Not only is this not where the original beta was downloaded from on purchase (that being http://vcc.dl.drumclassroom.net/), it is also not been communicated to the beta users (unless there's been communication within forums that I'm not aware of). What users area? What password? What username?
The users area on the Steve slate website doesn't take the username and password that was given for use with the VCC.dl website.
I mean, I know you guys aren't good at this side of the business (yes, I downloaded Steve Slate EX and got it WORKING!), but one tiny email would not've hurt.

Shy · Post by **Shy** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:51 am

What ever. The actually answering people on a forum like this side of business is better than most companies'.

metamorphosis · Post by **metamorphosis** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:55 am

Whatever. It isn't.

Slate · Post by **Slate** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:00 am

Hi metamorphosis. As soon as you purhcased the VCC beta, the email receipt that you were given supplies you with your USERS area login/pass and explains that you can receive updates there. If you forgot your users area password, please hit the "forgot password". If you have any more questions, I'd be glad to help you out.

Thanks,

Slate Virtual Console Plugin is now available