KVR Audio

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:37 pm

Slate wrote: As for the demo... After some thought.. I believe there is a market of engineers who would absolutely love what the VCC does to their mixes.. but would be scared to buy without at least demoing.. Therefore, a non ilok demo still interests me and I'll be discussing the best way to do it with my team.

How about creating a "black box" plugin that times out after 15 minutes or something? I mean, have no controls at all on the screen.. and perhaps a further inconvenience of separating two of the demo consoles as separate plugins?

Currently the grouping, input gain and drive knobs are subtle enough to be left out. What people need to hear and experience for themselves is mixing into the thing.. or at least what happens when you insert a few dozen instances of the plugins and how it interacts with the mixing and choices one does.

Cheers!
bManic

b-pole · Post by **b-pole** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:09 pm

why only discussing about iLok again and again?
it was Slate's decision to choose this protection

I had never problems with iLok, Synchrosoft or anything else.
For me only the quality counts

So please stay on topic, please.

Quote:
Of course I made some short examples on page 8 which hopefully helps also a bit for EDM style. Here the links again:
Without VCC
With VCC - SSL
With VCC - Neve
With VCC - API
With VCC - Trident

Dear Frank,
sorry to say this, this week I were at my ear doctor because of pain, made an ear test and all is super fine.
I do not hear really "big" differences

Perhaps not possible to hear differences with my Event PS8?
Or is it my Mackie Big Knob?

Please give me replies.
Are my speakers too "old" to hear really "big" differences?

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:11 pm

Slate wrote:- compyfox, I completely understand your points. Many people tell us we should be charging $500 plus for our plugins, and at least I'd like to think they are worth it!

They are worth it. And I look definiely forward to the upgrade console packs.

Slate wrote: But the fact is, that people want to pay LESS for technology each year.. especially as the recording industry grows.. the entry level sector obviously expands the most.

People don't want to pay $500 for a plugin anymore... its become very obvious, not only to us, but to other plugin developers who have finally dropped their pricing after charging this type of pricing for years now.

Steven, people ALWAYS want to pay less, that's what the street prices are for, and look at KVR's Market Place (or GearSluts) and take a look at how dumped down the prices are there. There is always room to get a bargain (clearance sales, discounts at Don'tCrack, your firm atm with the free iLok2, etc). And at the moment, you sell your lead-horse for way too less.

Again, take a look at Softube. They might have dropped prices here and there, same with SoundToys since they've gone native, Waves even (though that levels out with the WUP plan, don't want to go into that) - but most of them still charge a reasonable price for the work they have put into, and for the quality you get.

You said yourself (in both videos and mails) how long you have been working on this particular tool - do you really want to blow it out for peanuts?

Adjusted complaints or not, people out there that won't pay 500bucks for one software synth or just one "plugin" (not a set with these options!) or not... if you keep your plugin collection maintenanced, just like Waves does since PT one days (where it wasn't called PT yet!), the price would be totally adjusted.

You aim more for the pro-market anyway, no?
At least this is my impresson after watching the video, reading your comments on boards and mails, not to mention keeping it fairly secret what all features do (no manual - at least not on my end as of yet).

Slate wrote: I believe our pricing structure works well for the industry.. time will tell. We may in the future offer a more advanced version of our plugin line that has more options and pro features.. we'll see.

Saying that would totally dumb down your creation. This implies that your plugin collection is just "low level standards" and not as professonal as advertised. As customer, I'd definitely be pissed to hear "it's not like you can work with that plugin set, but we will offer a new and pro version in the near future - this is just entry level stuff".

This is doing you more harm than good, especially after the strong promotion route you've been going.

Slate wrote: As for the demo... After some thought.. I believe there is a market of engineers who would absolutely love what the VCC does to their mixes.. but would be scared to buy without at least demoing.. Therefore, a non ilok demo still interests me and I'll be discussing the best way to do it with my team.

Answer: don't.
Those that really want to test it, will test it on the iLok. Everyone else is just trying to "convince" you that your copy protection system is crap and unnecessary.

On the other hand, brainworx offers "non ilok" demos as well. Then again, that is handled through "software based" copy protection IIRC.

Just my 2c.

Dr.Gunjah · Post by **Dr.Gunjah** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:31 pm

Compyfox wrote:People, face it please. The times of iLok 1 are over. It's only there for the time being for compatibility's sake. iLok 2 is the forseeable future - smaller, higher encryption, backwards compatibility, more licenses to store.

I don't see a single reason for me as customer to upgrade to iLok2.
I don't have that many licenses(in fact the most licenses on my iLok are demo licenses

), I don't need a smaller stick and I don't need higher encryption.
So the only reason for me to buy an iLok2 are the devs that force me to buy one.

What would you have done if it'd be Syncrosoft eLicenser?

Of course I wouldn't buy it. Or if it's like here, where the dev asks for opinions... I would complain about it as I do now with iLok2.
Forcing people to buy a hardware device for demoing a software plugin is inacceptable.

I'm so tired of seeing the constant "copy protection" debate that derails most of the threads on every music software related board. If that is the developers decition, then it's their call and we users have to cave.

I usually don't participate in such discussions, but if a dev asks for opinions I don't see what's wrong in posting my opinion(?)
Like you say I don't have to buy it, and I clearly won't buy before demoing it. I could imagine I'm not alone with this attitude

bManic wrote: How about creating a "black box" plugin that times out after 15 minutes or something? I mean, have no controls at all on the screen.. and perhaps a further inconvenience of separating two of the demo consoles as separate plugins?

You may consider that making the demo unattractive for crack users probably makes it unattractive for potential customers too.

Cheers,
Doc

kelvyn · Post by **kelvyn** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:38 pm

Unfortunately most musicians (even the pro ones) aren't making any or enough money to pay for loads of expensive plug ins any more and the temptation to use cracks for a lot of my colleagues (semi and pro) has been tough, and yes some have succumbed. So a reasonable pricing policy for developers is extremely important... where is the 'Schmerz grenze' or 'Pain Threshold" for consumers. These are tough times for everyone at the moment...
I would love to demo the VCC and although I have both iLok and eLicencer dongles I am reticent about getting the iLok2 right now especially as the plugs are still quite new and there are still 64bit versions to be completed blah blah blah. It's just kinda sad that we have to have copy protection at all so the whole demo thing would be really easy... try - like - buy.

Mercado_Negro · Post by **Mercado_Negro** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:53 pm

@Compyfox

Probably for you is not fairly priced, that's OK. For me it's pretty expensive since my currency is much lower than the dollar so I ended up paying a lot for it (actually it's the most expensive tool I've bought, software-wise). I run a studio and do make a living out of this. I need my tools one way or another so I just pulled the trigger but this doesn't mean I didn't think a lot about it (it needs an iLok which is non-existent here in my country so in a no so distant future I'll need to buy another iLok for precaution since I had a bad experience with this protection in the past).

You want higher prices because you can afford those purchases, that's OK. But there is a world out there without the same privileges you may have, think about it.

Don't worry about having the same tool as the guy next door, at the end of the day that won't make you a successful person, experience and good marketing will do that for you.

Cheers

P.S. I support the non-ilok idea, Steven. Nice move.

macmurphy · Post by **macmurphy** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:33 pm

@Compyfox

you are shockingly elitist

AudioGuy720 · Post by **AudioGuy720** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:35 pm

Slate wrote:gonna discuss this with the team.. more opinions appreciated. I would love it if everyone can experience what this plugin can do without the ilok obstacle, but I also don't want two years of work to bite the dust due to piracy..

I'll be open about my concerns:

- people who don't like dongles.. even if they like the plugin, will the ilok requirement still stop the purchase?

- if we do the non ilok demo (just Brit 4k with mutes), it gets cracked, will this defeat sales of the full plugin/

Some things to consider:

If you release this on iLok 1, it will eventually be cracked. People will also find ways around the 30 second silence thing.

Not a lot of people own iLok 2's. Yeah, this will change but who knows how soon or when?

My thinking is this. I bought Trigger because I could hear what it did to crappy drum tracks. And also because of your SSD samples and user feedback that indeed it detects hits accurately.

I bought FG-X because I could hear what it did to other people's tracks.

VCC, not owning an iLok...I don't know wtf it will do to my tracks. So how about giving away a lite version for free. No iLok required, just outright free.

No automation, no oversampling. Allow presets though and setting retention. Send out a press release. That's what the crack dealers do...they give a little sample...and it works. I bought VCC on faith but I don't know how many more people will do that. Give 'em a little taste of what VCC can do and they will come.

bishop666 · Post by **bishop666** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:45 pm

NI does this with Komplete-player-product line.

http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/ ... /?src=navi

Slate · Post by **Slate** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:45 pm

Again.. all interesting points and we are listening!

One more time.. if we did the non ilok (or maybe just ilok1) demo with just Brit4k.. is this enough to show the power of this plugin? To me the 4k model is amazing in what it does.. this subtle clarity, fattening of kick snare, and de-mudding.. subtle about it, but I couldn't live without it now.

macmurphy · Post by **macmurphy** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:47 pm

@AudioGuy720

that is a great idea

bishop666 · Post by **bishop666** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:52 pm

Slate wrote:Again.. all interesting points and we are listening!

One more time.. if we did the non ilok (or maybe just ilok1) demo with just Brit4k.. is this enough to show the power of this plugin? To me the 4k model is amazing in what it does.. this subtle clarity, fattening of kick snare, and de-mudding.. subtle about it, but I couldn't live without it now.

i think the 4k would be a good choice.

Mercado_Negro · Post by **Mercado_Negro** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:54 pm

Slate wrote:Again.. all interesting points and we are listening!

One more time.. if we did the non ilok (or maybe just ilok1) demo with just Brit4k.. is this enough to show the power of this plugin? To me the 4k model is amazing in what it does.. this subtle clarity, fattening of kick snare, and de-mudding.. subtle about it, but I couldn't live without it now.

Put my iLok in a plane on Monday and I'll tell you by the end of the week

According to all audio demos I've heard yeah, that sounds like the ideal candidate.

Cheers

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:09 pm

Dr.Gunjah wrote: So the only reason for me to buy an iLok2 are the devs that force me to buy one.

And it's their right to actually do so to protect their creations.
Take it, or leave it. It's up to you - not the developers problem.

Dr.Gunjah wrote: Forcing people to buy a hardware device for demoing a software plugin is inacceptable.

Inacceptable to you - but think about the downsides/consequences of "open demos" and the warez-community once more. You don't have to give in if you don't want to. Nobody forces you to anything. But then you don't have (IMO) the right to complain either.

Dr.Gunjah wrote: Like you say I don't have to buy it, and I clearly won't buy before demoing it. I could imagine I'm not alone with this attitude

All the power to you then. But... the developer won't ultimately change his decision just because "you're not alone" on this.

Dr.Gunjah wrote: You may consider that making the demo unattractive for crack users probably makes it unattractive for potential customers too.

But that's the whole point now, isn't it?

A demo is supposed to be an appetizer. If the audio demos and video demos (which will come, if the userbase doesn't do so themself!) isn't enough - then I don't know what is. Granted, I usually want full access to a certain tool as well. But if the demo is well balanced, even with restrictions, isn't that enough of a reason to actually "buy" this plugin?

Seriously, I really think you/the "anti USB key" fration is always only out to get the developers for using a copy protection system YOU/THEY - DO - NOT - LIKE.

In the ideal world for such people - there would be no license keys, no watermarks, no individual copies, no C/R, no USB copy protection, no installer, no download but always a CD/DVD/BlueRay - just the plain plugin, best if in 64bit, crossplatform (or MAC ONLY), RTAS/TDM for dirt cheap, future proof for the next couple of centuries, being able to load on <whatever>-DSP card to save on CPU, being able to be resold (without fees!) - and only cost 9,99USD.

I'll take ten of them, please!

kelvyn wrote:These are tough times for everyone at the moment...

These are tough times for all kinds of fractions - not only the musicians and audio engineers. Still, it's not like to not have a some sort of "purchase list" or "list of importance".

On my end, this one shifts constantly - and I usually save up on money for months (sometimes years) before I can afford a new tool for my studio. Unless I can find a bargain deal - and at the moment, this one is a bargain deal.

YMMV of course.

Mercado_Negro wrote:You want higher prices because you can afford those purchases, that's OK. But there is a world out there without the same privileges you may have, think about it.

I never spoke about myself in direct context. I'm usually on a tight budget myself - so I appreciate the current offer. What I think about it on the long run, lies on another page.

Mercado_Negro wrote: Don't worry about having the same tool as the guy next door, at the end of the day that won't make you a successful person, experience and good marketing will do that for you.

I agree on that. Though it does't make my "setup" special anymore if I charge a fictious (as example!) price of about 100bucks/hour with moderate to top-end gear, while another one charges only a fraction with the same plugins (that I can't even be sure that this particular person got through legal ways), only created "phat beatz" so far, uses low-budget gear, but claims to be an "excellent audio engineer" - even though that person never learned that.

I'm fighting that particular case for a certain while now.
It's not easy to be independent.

macmurphy wrote:you are shockingly elitist

I'm shocked that you're shocked. (hm... play on words)
Well deserved IMO and proud of it, thanks for the compliment.

4damind · Post by **4damind** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:13 pm

b-pole wrote:Dear Frank,
sorry to say this, this week I were at my ear doctor because of pain, made an ear test and all is super fine.
I do not hear really "big" differences

Perhaps not possible to hear differences with my Event PS8?
Or is it my Mackie Big Knob?

For me it works the best, loading such tracks in the DAW and switching while playing from track to track (track mode in "Solo").
Anyway, there are not "big" differences but many found with the "Brit-N" (Neve) the biggest difference (because of the hyped bottom-end)

Slate Virtual Console Plugin is now available