Hi,
I am going to build a set of footpedals and use a keyboard emulator to send keystrokes to Cantabile so that I can play bass with one foot, strings with the other,etc...that is if I can possibly do it while also playing guitar! The ability to create multiple ranges is a wonderful feature. But it seems that only 24 notes can actually be triggered from the computer keyboard itself (without adjusting those little bars at the bottom. The keyboard emulator I plan to use can send 56 independent 'keystrokes', and I would like to be able to trigger more than 24 notes from the foot-keyboard on the floor.
I have used third party 'virtual keyboards' which can be programmed to send as many notes from the computer keyboard as you could care for, but there is a slight but noticeable delay when compared to the keyboard interface built into Cantabile. And 'Midi brains' to send actual Midi data are much more expensive than keyboard emulators.
Any ideas on whether it is possible to get more than two octaves worth of messages from the onscreen computer keyboard?
Thanks,
Scott
More than 2 octaves from onscreen keyboard ?
-
- KVRAF
- 2310 posts since 13 Apr, 2008 from Germany
I think PC qwerty keyboards are no good input devices for serious performance of notes. The layout and feel may be a matter of taste but I can't imagine it to be as responsive as a good midi solution. 
Best regards, TiUser
...and keep on jamming...
...and keep on jamming...
-
- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 8 posts since 10 Feb, 2011
Yeah, I totally agree with you. I may not have been sufficiently clear with what I am planning to do, but I'm not going to be using an actual qwerty keyboard at all. I have 50 pushbutton switches that are now in the mail, and I am going to mount them into a unit which goes on the floor, and I am going to play them with my feet. The layout will be one that is much more musically intuitive than a qwerty keyboard but the buttons will trigger whatever qwerty keypresses I choose, thanks to a keyboard encoder. So in fact, it doesn't have to be overly responsive -I probably won't be attempting any solos with my feet, but you never know... 
It may seem simpler just to go MIDI, but it is much more expensive, and I'm satisfied with the performance of having the sounds triggered from computer keyboard keypresses (so doing the same thing with my future floor unit should be fine too). Unless I start stringing programs together, I can't hear any latency at all. The particular encoder I'm using has a direct connection for each input; no key matrix is used, so that avoids some potential headaches. Thanks for writing!
It may seem simpler just to go MIDI, but it is much more expensive, and I'm satisfied with the performance of having the sounds triggered from computer keyboard keypresses (so doing the same thing with my future floor unit should be fine too). Unless I start stringing programs together, I can't hear any latency at all. The particular encoder I'm using has a direct connection for each input; no key matrix is used, so that avoids some potential headaches. Thanks for writing!-
- KVRAF
- 2310 posts since 13 Apr, 2008 from Germany
Oh...
If you are building an own controller, why not connecting the switches to a contact to midi interface? There are several solutions out for that. "Doepfer" just comes to my mind that offers such components for OEM projects.
With performing music applications timing is always a point - even if you are actually unsure about your use. Remember organ pedal boards where you really can play with your feet.
BTW, your idea sounds interesting, let me know how you're going on. 50 knobs for foot control is really a lot...
If you are building an own controller, why not connecting the switches to a contact to midi interface? There are several solutions out for that. "Doepfer" just comes to my mind that offers such components for OEM projects.
With performing music applications timing is always a point - even if you are actually unsure about your use. Remember organ pedal boards where you really can play with your feet.
BTW, your idea sounds interesting, let me know how you're going on. 50 knobs for foot control is really a lot...
Best regards, TiUser
...and keep on jamming...
...and keep on jamming...
-
- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 8 posts since 10 Feb, 2011
I originally planned on using a MIDI interface, but they are three or four times as expensive as the keyboard encoders that I have seen. The encoder I ordered was only $38. Also, I plan to use some of those 50 buttons for actual computer keyboard commands such as the space bar, tab, enter, etc., so that I can manipulate programs without having to let go of my guitar.
Yeah, I have an old Hammond (not a B-3!), and I fool around with it sometimes, but the pedals are WAY too far apart for me, and one octave just isn't enough. Have you ever seen the "Footar"? I don't think they are being made anymore; they have several rows of buttons, and each row is 'tuned' a 4th higher than the previous row, just like a bass guitar. So, for example, you can go back and forth between notes an octave apart and not be traveling 4 feet between notes, as you would with organ type pedals. Now that's got to be hard on timing
(in reality you would use both your feet for that, but I plan to be holding a string note with one of mine)! And truly, I can't complain about the timing of notes triggered from the computer keyboard...there is no latency. I know 50 buttons seems like a lot, but I plan to have the keyboard split into at least two ranges...about two octaves of bass, and then about that for strings, or some other similar type of sound. And who knows...on some songs I may have a bunch of splits or ranges each with it's own voice, so that I can tap dance all kinds of sounds! I will definitely let you know how it goes - Scott
Yeah, I have an old Hammond (not a B-3!), and I fool around with it sometimes, but the pedals are WAY too far apart for me, and one octave just isn't enough. Have you ever seen the "Footar"? I don't think they are being made anymore; they have several rows of buttons, and each row is 'tuned' a 4th higher than the previous row, just like a bass guitar. So, for example, you can go back and forth between notes an octave apart and not be traveling 4 feet between notes, as you would with organ type pedals. Now that's got to be hard on timing
(in reality you would use both your feet for that, but I plan to be holding a string note with one of mine)! And truly, I can't complain about the timing of notes triggered from the computer keyboard...there is no latency. I know 50 buttons seems like a lot, but I plan to have the keyboard split into at least two ranges...about two octaves of bass, and then about that for strings, or some other similar type of sound. And who knows...on some songs I may have a bunch of splits or ranges each with it's own voice, so that I can tap dance all kinds of sounds! I will definitely let you know how it goes - Scott-
- KVRAF
- 2310 posts since 13 Apr, 2008 from Germany
Well, I understand the cost difference of the interface but if you're using solid switches standing foot operation these will be the major cost factor if you plan to use about 50 of these and a solid housing isn't for free either. I myself remember well underestimating cost and effort for mechanics in electronic projects.
Usually there is just one logical qwerty keyboard recognized with a PC, even if you have connected more than one. I have no clue if you can detect and handle the different physical devices separately. I personally would rethink if that's what you want - it sounds like this is your idea, but well, before spending any money probably rethink again...
I have seen some other keyboard layouts. There are some around with "knobby" instruments. The accordions already present us this concept - and each key can have even two different notes - when you push or pull the bellows... More "traditional" is the uniform keyboard. If you see it for the first time it looks futuristic but indeed these ideas are quite old.
I've had some hard time to learn the basics of traditional piano keyboard layout and I am too lazy to learn something new.
Bass pedals are up to about 2 1/2 octaves and quite huge which needs playing with both feet. I've only a bit experience with smaller pedals and playing with one foot. It's a lot of coordination needed and difficult to play two hands and feet really independently and not in simple patters.
Finally just take my words as one voice - but go your way and try what you need to try and what inspires you. Have fun and enjoy Cantabile!...
Usually there is just one logical qwerty keyboard recognized with a PC, even if you have connected more than one. I have no clue if you can detect and handle the different physical devices separately. I personally would rethink if that's what you want - it sounds like this is your idea, but well, before spending any money probably rethink again...
I have seen some other keyboard layouts. There are some around with "knobby" instruments. The accordions already present us this concept - and each key can have even two different notes - when you push or pull the bellows... More "traditional" is the uniform keyboard. If you see it for the first time it looks futuristic but indeed these ideas are quite old.
I've had some hard time to learn the basics of traditional piano keyboard layout and I am too lazy to learn something new.
Bass pedals are up to about 2 1/2 octaves and quite huge which needs playing with both feet. I've only a bit experience with smaller pedals and playing with one foot. It's a lot of coordination needed and difficult to play two hands and feet really independently and not in simple patters.
Finally just take my words as one voice - but go your way and try what you need to try and what inspires you. Have fun and enjoy Cantabile!...
Best regards, TiUser
...and keep on jamming...
...and keep on jamming...
-
- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 8 posts since 10 Feb, 2011
I sure agree that costs can spiral out of control. I bought my switches as a lot off of e-bay, so who knows what I'll end up with? They are doorbell switches, I think. Since I plan on often playing a note with each foot at the same time, I think sitting is mandatory, so hopefully the switches won't bear too much weight. The keyboard encoder that I have bought can be used simultaneously with a USB keyboard. A nice thing is that the layout of the keys can be changed on the fly (that is, the switches are obviously permanently placed, but which notes are triggered by which keypresses is entirely up to me, and can be changed in the middle of a song...don't know why I'd want to do that though 
). Also, I can easily trigger chords to play when I am playing single notes.
Other than the housing which I can make (I'm a woodworker, though metal would be nicer), I have gotten all the parts for under $80. I'm really not trying to invent anything special, or make the best footpedals ever, I just want something that I can trigger simple accompaniment notes while I play. If I were planning to use it regularly in performance situations, I would put more planning and money into it for sure. Right now, I'm just trying to get something to see if I have enough musical ability and manual dexterity to play three parts at once. So this is both a prototype of the footpedals, and a test of me as a footpedal and guitar player. That's one reason I wanted to go cheap - I don't want to loose too much if for some reason it just doesn't work. But if the footpedals do work as well as I hope, then I am certain that I will build an improved version...based on the flaws I find with this first one. At which point I'd reconsider MIDI, etc.
I sure appreciate your interest and willingness to discuss it. Although it may seem like my mind is made up with this particular project (probably because it is - the stuff is in the mail!), I always enjoy looking at things from various points of view, and enjoy the dialogue that often arises. I'll be sure to give you an objective report on the good, bad, and ugly of this unit after I have made and used it. And as always, I'd be happy to hear ideas or opinions along these lines.
-Scott
). Also, I can easily trigger chords to play when I am playing single notes.Other than the housing which I can make (I'm a woodworker, though metal would be nicer), I have gotten all the parts for under $80. I'm really not trying to invent anything special, or make the best footpedals ever, I just want something that I can trigger simple accompaniment notes while I play. If I were planning to use it regularly in performance situations, I would put more planning and money into it for sure. Right now, I'm just trying to get something to see if I have enough musical ability and manual dexterity to play three parts at once. So this is both a prototype of the footpedals, and a test of me as a footpedal and guitar player. That's one reason I wanted to go cheap - I don't want to loose too much if for some reason it just doesn't work. But if the footpedals do work as well as I hope, then I am certain that I will build an improved version...based on the flaws I find with this first one. At which point I'd reconsider MIDI, etc.
I sure appreciate your interest and willingness to discuss it. Although it may seem like my mind is made up with this particular project (probably because it is - the stuff is in the mail!), I always enjoy looking at things from various points of view, and enjoy the dialogue that often arises. I'll be sure to give you an objective report on the good, bad, and ugly of this unit after I have made and used it. And as always, I'd be happy to hear ideas or opinions along these lines.
-Scott
-
- KVRAF
- 2310 posts since 13 Apr, 2008 from Germany
Thanks for your great answer.
I like looking at things from various viewpoints too.
Let us know your experiences with your project when it has progressed.
I like looking at things from various viewpoints too.
Let us know your experiences with your project when it has progressed.
Best regards, TiUser
...and keep on jamming...
...and keep on jamming...
-
- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 8 posts since 10 Feb, 2011
Hi,
Well, I have built and used my unit (I call it the Foot Thing), and I am entirely satisfied with it (at this, the prototype stage). I told you that I'd report on the good, the bad, and the ugly.
I wouldn't call it ugly, but it is rather plain: 4 rows of 10 buttons each, mounted to a 1/8 thick piece of oak plywood which is mounted to a base which is angled, that is, higher in the back, as it should be. The switches ate placed on 3 inch centers which is a little close, but it makes moving around very easy and it's pretty easy not to trigger notes by mistake. I was afraid to try it out - afraid that I couldn't do three things at once, but for some reason I can, and it sounds pretty good. At this point, the connections to the switches are not soldered, just twisted on...I didn't know if the switch spacing would be too close, in which case I would have to rebuild the housing. So every now and then a note will not cut off, or it won't trigger when I press the switch, but I expect that problem will cease once I have soldered the wires.
A problem that I am having is one that I originally posted about...Cantabile only accepts about 27 or 30 inputs from the keyboard at a time, and I want to use all 40 that I can send from the Foot Thing (aka FT). I found another program (called virtual midi piano keyboard (VMPK)) which will accept all of the inputs from my FT and it works very well. No latency at all when I trigger soundfonts with it. But if I send data out from VMPK via MidiYoke to Cantible to trigger other softsynths which I can split and layer as I like, there is latency. If I send the output from the FT directly to Cantabile, there is no latency, but again, Cantabile doesn't see all of the 40 keystrokes I can send it. Oh, and my computer is a dinosaur, so that might be one of my problems too ':D'! I hope what I have written makes sense. So what I have been doing is creating my own soundfont patches, creating the splits and layers where I want them, so they are built into the soundfont itself, so I can simply use VMPK, which doesn't have provisions for splitting and layering. It's not a great solution, but it does work.
I do think in the future I will build another and use a MIDI brain and maybe get a hardware sound unit to trigger...I really don't love latency all that much. And if I do want to simulate keyboard presses to send to a computer program, I can always use a utility like Boome's Midi Translator.
But for now, my FT really does work well, and is very satisfying to use!
Scott
Well, I have built and used my unit (I call it the Foot Thing), and I am entirely satisfied with it (at this, the prototype stage). I told you that I'd report on the good, the bad, and the ugly.
I wouldn't call it ugly, but it is rather plain: 4 rows of 10 buttons each, mounted to a 1/8 thick piece of oak plywood which is mounted to a base which is angled, that is, higher in the back, as it should be. The switches ate placed on 3 inch centers which is a little close, but it makes moving around very easy and it's pretty easy not to trigger notes by mistake. I was afraid to try it out - afraid that I couldn't do three things at once, but for some reason I can, and it sounds pretty good. At this point, the connections to the switches are not soldered, just twisted on...I didn't know if the switch spacing would be too close, in which case I would have to rebuild the housing. So every now and then a note will not cut off, or it won't trigger when I press the switch, but I expect that problem will cease once I have soldered the wires.
A problem that I am having is one that I originally posted about...Cantabile only accepts about 27 or 30 inputs from the keyboard at a time, and I want to use all 40 that I can send from the Foot Thing (aka FT). I found another program (called virtual midi piano keyboard (VMPK)) which will accept all of the inputs from my FT and it works very well. No latency at all when I trigger soundfonts with it. But if I send data out from VMPK via MidiYoke to Cantible to trigger other softsynths which I can split and layer as I like, there is latency. If I send the output from the FT directly to Cantabile, there is no latency, but again, Cantabile doesn't see all of the 40 keystrokes I can send it. Oh, and my computer is a dinosaur, so that might be one of my problems too ':D'! I hope what I have written makes sense. So what I have been doing is creating my own soundfont patches, creating the splits and layers where I want them, so they are built into the soundfont itself, so I can simply use VMPK, which doesn't have provisions for splitting and layering. It's not a great solution, but it does work.
I do think in the future I will build another and use a MIDI brain and maybe get a hardware sound unit to trigger...I really don't love latency all that much. And if I do want to simulate keyboard presses to send to a computer program, I can always use a utility like Boome's Midi Translator.
But for now, my FT really does work well, and is very satisfying to use!
Scott