Who uses Cantabile live (and no synth hardware)

[ineedauniquename]

I have 7 on my laptop but don't know it well enough to be using it in my racks. It is slow as hell and has way to much $%^ in it.

Windows 7 is genuinely super awsome, the ^$"£4 is probably the rubbish the laptop vendor stuck on it (I had to strip loads of stuff off from my Sony Vaio) - it will be worth your checking out but heck if XP is working for you why change?

I notice you didn't mention Vista .... so nor will I .

What do you use to host your VSTs? and do you load them dynamically for each song or load 'em all up in one hit and switch between by bypass or midi channels?

[Throbert]

I did get quite a bit of the hash out already, but when you are setting up a system for a specific job I can't see not running the OS through a litening app.

[MaxSynths]

Ehi guys I've found this free piece of software: Rack Performer

Didn't give it a try yet (I have to figure out how it works) but it seems interesting: it manage the audio with it's "Turbo Line ASIO" driver which seems to be a dedicated technology developed with the aim to grant good latency response in live situations.

Well it's free (currently in beta), give it a try

[tkmh]

Re: Rack Performer

I couldn't get it to play nice with my video card so I couldn't
give it a try out.

But hey, at least the developer seems to have a genuine interest
in the forward development of his own software product---
unlike others we could talk about!!

[TiUser]

Windows 7 is genuinely super awsome, the ^$"£4 is probably the rubbish the laptop vendor stuck on it (I had to strip loads of stuff off from my Sony Vaio)...

I agree that OEM Win is often a pain in the arse... I faced some trouble by this too and wonder why HW makers can not simply put a regular Win OS on their machines - including a regular Win OS CD...

[tombuck]

i am 100% in favor of VST for live performances. i've been doing it for over a year now using 2 controllers and my laptop. having said that, there is a fair amount of tweaking to achieve a hardened system and i've got loads of experience here, including Windows 7 configuration, x86/x64, Cantabile, etc... Bottom line it is totally feasible and in my opion offers the greatest versatility and portability for a keyboard player. i can share all of my details here or connect via email if interested.

[aqualatus]

@ tombuck

I would love to read some more about your setup. I think it's better to share knowledge here, so that everyone can reach it.

1. What kind of laptop?
2. Which Windows, or MacOS?
3. general list of VST's
4. Which audio interface?
5. How much pressure can you put on your setup, when you play?

[tombuck]

no problem. my current rig is the result of quite a bit of trial and error, and i've experimented with various configurations and i'm still experimenting to a certain extent. i've posted up-to-date info on my website, thomasbuckley.com so check out the About section to see my current inventory. i also have some pics where you can see my rig while i'm playing. there is a lot of technical details going on here but i'll try to highlight my key learnings:

I chose the Sony VAIO VPCF1 mostly because of price-performance - at the time i purchased it. prior to this, i had a Core I7 PC mounted in a rack mount case but found there were too many drawbacks. so i decided to go to a laptop, and the Sony offers a high def screen, Core I7, 6 gb RAM, and backlit keyboard. the machine ships with well behaved and easy to find drivers. I run Windows 7 64 bit. as you read through my description, you'll notice all my apps are 32 bit. so, yes, 64 bit and 6 gb are overkill for 32 bit apps, but i arrived here through trial and error. i do plan on doing another experimental build of my live rig that is all 64 bit.

you have to tweak Windows - like setting power to maximum performance, turn off screen saver, avoid sleep/hibernate, reschedule nightly updates so they don't start running while you are in the middle of a rockin solo, defrag disk regularly, minimize bios load and windows boot time, kill unnecessary services, etc... i should probably creat a list.

here is where things get interesting - for redundancy, i boot into a VHD, or "virtual hard drive" instance of Windows 7, and have a secondary hard drive that has a copied version of my bootable VHD. note, this is not a traditional dual boot configuration, but a new feature available only with Windows 7. that way, if my primary HD fails, i simply reboot into my second drive, via eSata, and into the bootable VHD and that will give me exactly the same system as the failed hd. using a bootable VHD instance also allows me to configure a full OS with all of my apps just once, then i simply copy the VHD to my secondary hard drive before each gig. doing so i avoid having to duplicate changes on a secondary machine or secondary hard drive. this is a HUGE benefit and offers complete recovery within the time it takes to reboot - about a minute and a half or so.

as for VST's, i decided to stick with 32 bit versions of everything including the VST host which is Cantabile Performer. i found that the world of VST's is pretty much the wild west, with some VST's more host friendly than others, and when you factor in 32 bit vs 64 bit, it makes the problem even more complex thereby introducing potential instabilities. i've found that 32 bit VST's perform perfectly fine for live performances. my workhorse VST's are Dimension Pro from Sonar, VB3, TruePianos, Minimogue VA, some of the NI Komplete 7 instruments, as well as Sonar effects like Sonitus reverb - which has to be configured to work in a host like Cantabile. most of my peformance bottlnecks are in the form of disk I/O and loading sessions, and not memory or processor usually.

audio interface is the M-Audio Fast Track Ultra 8R. i needed a rack mount interface with multiple inputs/outputs. it is a USB interface and works just great for live performances. i actually prefer a solid USB connection off my laptop as opposed to the tiny firewire jack. ASIO drivers are solid, they are 64 bit drivers of course and work great. my only grievance is that the power and USB connection in the back of the unit aren't secure-able, so i have to make sure the cables didn't disconnect in transit before i fire up the rig.

how much pressure, not 100% what you are asking but i beat the crap out of my system. i have 2 controllers, m-audio keystation pro 88 connected via USB, and an old roland super JX connected via midi. basically the keystation is my heavy action controller, and my roland is the light action controller. I just turn them on and leave them, all mappings are done via Cantabile. my last band we played about twice a month, and the summer almost every weekend. my computer and rack gear is housed in a SKB studio flyer case.

pain points
- right now i am still chasing a problemm where the keystation pro loses communication with Cantabile. there have been several posts here describing the issue but i haven't found a reliable solution or workaround. not sure if it is a Cantabile issue, a keystation issue, or some other environmental variable.
- stuck notes from my roland controller via midi. generally happens when i do fast glides on my organ solos. i've found that i just do another glide to release the note and it usually works. but still a pain that i need to address.
- since i connect my keystation pro and my audio device through a powered usb hub, the hub has become a single point of failure - and i have already gone through 2 usb hubs. what makes this a real problem is the fact that i have a lot of controller assignments on my sessions, and when i swap a usb hub, my keystation pro is given a new usb name in Cantabile, which means i have to re-program each controller assignment with the new controller name.
- disk I/O i think can be improved, but i wouldn't classify as a pain point. running in a bootable VHD inflicts a very small performance penalty - mostly on write access. since everything i do playing live requires mostly read access, i'm perfectly fine playing once the session is loaded. i would like to experiment on getting faster read access so my sessions load faster. currently, depending on the complexity of a session, it could take a few seconds to load a session - which is a song for me. in situations where i need songs to load in a medly fashion, i'll convert sessions to subsessions and click through with my foot pedal.

hope that helps. i may post some videos on my site that detail my configuration and learnings.

[TiUser]

... having said that, there is a fair amount of tweaking to achieve a hardened system and i've got loads of experience here,...

...that's just the point why I still think "HW" is not obsolete, even if it is not perfect too.

I think the truth is that even using one PC or notebook we deal with even more components - just the most are software pieces then.

I still love Cantabile but I also think live software hosts are far from being no brainers in use.

While things may be manageable when you work with a predefined sequence in a show random access to setups is still a challenge and something that does not work too great with software hosts - named loading times and glitches. Again "HW" isn't perfect too but usually behaving better...

[aqualatus]

@ TiUser

I don't think anyone's said here that HW is obsolete.
It's definitely heavier
Sometimes it's also very important to be able to choose a different keyboard size or type, without changing your sounds. It's a much more elastic configuration.

I think that the setups with a PC and a MIDI controller will never be as fast and reliable as "HW" solutions. They just may be fast and reliable enough
You simply need a good consensus.

@ tombuck

Thank you for your elaboration
I find the VHD part especially interesting. I tried using many boot loaders to obtain two Windows installations on a single disk (one for the music and one for every-day use), that wouldn't "see" each other - for security reasons. Now, since eSATA ports are available on most machines this problem is easier to solve, but you VHD solution sound good. I'll take a look at it.

[tombuck]

the other cool thing about VHD's, and bootable VHD's is you can mount them and treat them like any other drive. Let me know if you have any other questions, i do believe that is a key part of my system for redundancy.

Also, to TiUser's point, everyone needs to decide what works for them and their comfort level. for me, now that i've achieved a hardened computer based live rig, i feel that the advantages far outweight any disadvantage. VST's are a whole lot cheaper than buying a physical synth - and i came from a world of physical synths and modules.

one thing i didn't mention in my lengthy description of my rig, is that i could probably build another one at today's prices for probably less than $1,500 - including controllers, software, and a boatload of VST's if I wanted. definatley less than $2k all up. and for the money, i'd have limitless flexibility and sounds in a lightweight portable system.

but, that's just my opinion...

[geoslake]

I use Cantabile only, and never encountered a single glitch, crash etc
I use (mainly) the Samplelord sampler, which is very reliable and cpu efficient.

[TiUser]

@ TiUser

I don't think anyone's said here that HW is obsolete.
It's definitely heavier
Sometimes it's also very important to be able to choose a different keyboard size or type, without changing your sounds. It's a much more elastic configuration.

I think that the setups with a PC and a MIDI controller will never be as fast and reliable as "HW" solutions. They just may be fast and reliable enough
You simply need a good consensus.

...

Well, sorry, but I am too easy pointing to "HW modules and keyboards" when it looks like SW solutions can replace it all...

Heavier? Possibly but maybe less clumsy to set up to. If one is a "hammer action guy" the point gets lost as the hammer action keyboard is by far the heaviest component... Not to mention other components you need for live, like speakers, amps, ...but I admit, I am a weight manic too who gets alarmed about each pieace of gear exceeding the 10-15kg range... if it's something bulky too handling as one person can become very unconvenient or difficult...

Finally I agree to your conclsion summary about HW and SW solutions - think this hit's the nail quite well.

[TiUser]

...
Also, to TiUser's point, everyone needs to decide what works for them and their comfort level. for me, now that i've achieved a hardened computer based live rig, i feel that the advantages far outweight any disadvantage. VST's are a whole lot cheaper than buying a physical synth - and i came from a world of physical synths and modules.
...
but, that's just my opinion...

Quite true. There are pros and cons.

If you go to very complex setups I guess HW and SW will give you some headache - different one of course...

But looking at some "simpler" setup it's just I can peel a HW keyboard of the box and start playing within 5 minutes... I can't do the same with a new PC and a new controller keyboard even if I have all the software I want. You are also never prone to surprises putting the new components together. So if you don't weight your time for money HW may be expensive...

OK HW modules are bulky because of 19" housings. On the other hand I have a 25 years old synth module I can use even today via midi. I have also some years old NI B4II which was discontinued after a couple of years and maybe it will not run on a PC 10 years from now... you may say the price adjusts for that so one can buy another software - but hunting software can become exhausting too...

But I admit - that's an endless weighting of pros and cons and so I agree to you that everyone has to decide for themsleves. I just think it's useful to know arguments about both sides... I honestly do not want to take party for any side...

[chopsxxx]

I use cantabile Performer at almost every show, and on tours.

I play with dozens of different acts and sometimes one-off shows, so I use sessions to distinguish shows, and sub-sessions for switching sounds. If I run a combo hardward/software rig I use a Kurzweil for piano, and a hammond module through a leslie for organ. E-piano, strings, synths, sample trigger, and general weirdness come from Kontakt 4/Scarbee w vintage keys FX, Absynth, MTron, and a few others variously. If all sofware, I add in Ivory and Vintage Organs. B4II had MAJOR issues in Cantabile for me - huge speaker destroying audio glitches.

My generic rig gives me instant access to Piano, Organ, rhodes, wurli, clav, and a chosen Absynth patch (where I have a few sub-sessions made for different absynth patches). Control of effects for the e-pianos is on tap at all times. I transmit on 4 channels simultaneously on my master controller and just push up the midi volume faders I need for the song, or change channels on a secondary keyboard to reach the weirder stuff. All splits are programmed on software not on the keyboards themselves which saves on brain-hurtiness.

Ive done quite a few shows where Cantabile is my ONLY sound source. You need to rehearse and test it and not tweak setup on the fly (sound modding OK though!), but it works fantastically. These days if I have a (rare) glitch it's cause I made a mistake or didnt test the programming out before rolling on a show. I don't crash on a Sony Vaio i5, 4GB, W7x64, and MOTU MicroBook interface. Rock solid.