KVR Audio

neueliteratur · Post by **neueliteratur** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:48 pm

Hi,

In this clip (), at 00:14~00:16,

I hear a sort of V II I movement.

which is D7 Am9 Gadd9/B, if you will.

Let's share other examples of V II I passages.

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:45 pm

Wow, halfstep. I really have to hand it to you. I've developed a great ear and the theory behind it.

neueliteratur · Post by **neueliteratur** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:51 pm

tapper mike wrote:Wow, halfstep. I really have to hand it to you. I've developed a great ear and the theory behind it.

Could you hand it to me immediately?

edit - oh, i didn't know that was an expression. I thought you wanted to hand your theory to me. haha.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:59 pm

I think making a distinction between V and ii here isn't really all that useful (IE: it's better to see the equivalence).

IE: that 'ii' may as well be 'V' (with 6 and 4 suspended for 5 and 3, which is known to classical part writing for centuries); there is part writing to notice, but 'what label' isn't going to show you a lot about what happened.

notice the linear (LH part): E C D. F# G A. D A B. That's what those harmonies are driven by; you're asking the cart of 'ii vs V' to pull the horse.

neueliteratur · Post by **neueliteratur** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:27 pm

jancivil wrote:I think making a distinction between V and ii here isn't really all that useful (IE: it's better to see the equivalence).

IE: that 'ii' may as well be 'V' (with 6 and 4 suspended for 5 and 3, which is known to classical part writing for centuries); there is part writing to notice, but 'what label' isn't going to show you a lot about what happened.

notice the linear (LH part): E C D. F# G A. D A B. That's what those harmonies are driven by; you're asking the cart of 'ii vs V' to pull the horse.

Thank you.

(with 6 and 4 suspended for 5 and 3)

Can you explain this please? I don't get it.

dynamic_producer · Post by **dynamic_producer** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:21 pm

Interesting...

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:07 am

halfstep wrote:
jancivil wrote:I think making a distinction between V and ii here isn't really all that useful (IE: it's better to see the equivalence).

IE: that 'ii' may as well be 'V' (with 6 and 4 suspended for 5 and 3, which is known to classical part writing for centuries); there is part writing to notice, but 'what label' isn't going to show you a lot about what happened.

notice the linear (LH part): E C D. F# G A. D A B. That's what those harmonies are driven by; you're asking the cart of 'ii vs V' to pull the horse.
Thank you.

(with 6 and 4 suspended for 5 and 3)

Can you explain this please? I don't get it.

Well, what I have there is pretty arcane I guess, to look at it 'on paper'.

the V chord is D. In my argument, I'm taking the top B as if a [13th or] 6th over that D as [implied] root; the chord tone, the fifth of that harmony would be A*.
And the G is a 4th as would be figured from that [implied] D.

I'm just speaking conceptually to show you can look at ii and V differently (I showed the equivalence precisely in another thread in a progression I offered). V to ii to I will generally be considered weak progression, but I bet you find it strong enough. I would transcribe what happened not by determining roman numerals but from finding those lines I mentioned in context of the resolution and as figured from the bass (which is the first consideration for me). (I am taking D as the real bass function for both chords, for purposes of this argument.)

(*: 'suspension' isn't the correct term technically, it's just a non-chord tone here arrived at stepwise; a suspension would be the correct term academically only if the B existed prior to that harmony. I call it that because it has a 'suspended-y' flavor.)

6/4 to 5/3 is classic part-writing. A more typical (and easier to see) harmonic cadence:

I in second inversion: D G B
to V in root position: D F# A

B and G are 6 and 4, moving down to 5 and 3 [A and F#].
Now, in harmony class that 6/4 refers to the 6/4 chord (which to many merely indicates 2nd inversion), but the practice that informs it is contrapuntal (IE: just analysing the relationship to the BASS, which is the practice of Figured Bass, which presupposed harmonic analysis as we find it today).

The overarching point I'm trying to reach you with is, you place primary emphasis on what the name of something is in your analyses, which is asking the cart to pull the horse, conceptually. IE: V to ii isn't the most essential thing about that cadence, which isn't in my estimation the weak progression you might get with different voice-leading, or block chords.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:19 am

in simpler terms, the overall effect of that 'A minor 9th' isn't a lot different than a full D13.

in the 'classic' turnaround, both that D G B and that D F# A are seen per the bass function, which is the primary consideration. The 6/4 was a decoration of the Bass before it was a chord in a 'chord progression'.

In my argument, I'm suggesting the entire A minor chord be considered per the function of the bass "D", even where it might be absent. It's a really subtle point that may take a minute to digest. I wouldn't torture myself over it too much right now if it isn't clear.

neueliteratur · Post by **neueliteratur** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:36 am

Thanks.

Your explanation explains what my ears hear. (that "suspended-y" flavour)

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:24 am

y.w.

the other thing is, even if you completely damped that D before the putative Am9, that bell has been rung, it is the [dominant in the] bass to the ear.

Examples of "V-II-I"