How important is VST3 support for you as a customer

[hibidy]

[koolkeys]

[zvenx]

as we have gone way off topic (as a customer), the bottom line is, it will matter for some a lot......like for me it does especially specifically for plug-ins I need Side Chaining or multiple midi ports and channels, and I will support those developers who do. for others it doesn't and they will continue to support those developers who don't...... what I do know is SB isn't going back....
rsp

[Urs]

the case was dismissed.

Gosh. Nevermind.

[bob bobwood]

I've read the whole thread and forgotten the question. [scrolls down].
Ah, I don't care and exercise my right not to vote, and you can shoot me down if I subsequently start whining.
What a way to spend my honeymoon ?!

[C-note]

Probably a deal breaker for me in the near future

[Elektrobolt]

The reason people don't care is because they don't know what they are missing because hosts are too lazy to implement all the cool features.

Like what?

Note Expression, mate.

[AdmiralQuality]

The reason people don't care is because they don't know what they are missing because hosts are too lazy to implement all the cool features.

Like what?

Note Expression, mate.

It's called polyphonic pressure and it's there in the original 1983 MIDI spec.

By the way, what instrument/controller are you playing to record your note expression performances on?

And why not just use separate instrument tracks for separate instruments?

Lets make it easy, just provide a single example of a work by anyone where note expression is used to achieve an effect you couldn't get last year.

[koolkeys]

The reason people don't care is because they don't know what they are missing because hosts are too lazy to implement all the cool features.

Like what?

Note Expression, mate.

It's called polyphonic pressure and it's there in the original 1983 MIDI spec.

By the way, what instrument/controller are you playing to record your note expression performances on?

And why not just use separate instrument tracks for separate instruments?

Lets make it easy, just provide a single example of a work by anyone where note expression is used to achieve an effect you couldn't get last year.

Not exactly the same thing though. Polyphonic aftertouch, besides being supported by only a small part of the market, and virtually impossible in most every major virtual instrument, doesn't allow for per-note modulation of ANY MIDI CC. You can't have three different polyphonic aftertouch settings per note. With Note Expression, you can have different pan settings per note, along with different sustain pedal settings per note, along with different pitch bend per note, and all editable separately. The MIDI spec currently doesn't allow this because MIDI CCs are per channel. You can't have multiples of the same CC value on a single channel, and therefore, can't have more than one set of polyphonic aftertouch settings.

Even if you do have a synth the recognizes PA, if you want to use it on another CC like expression, you have to remap it.

Why not use separate tracks for separate instruments? Because having everything in one place can make it easier to edit without jumping back and forth, among other things.

Also, you don't have to have a controller that supports it as you can use your mouse and the software to make the changes.

There won't be a large amount of examples of it's use yet because Note Expression is still new, but the benefits ARE there, and they are not in the original MIDI spec.

(I'm not a Cubase user, btw. Just pointing out the difference.)

Brent

[AdmiralQuality]

The reason people don't care is because they don't know what they are missing because hosts are too lazy to implement all the cool features.

Like what?

Note Expression, mate.

It's called polyphonic pressure and it's there in the original 1983 MIDI spec.

By the way, what instrument/controller are you playing to record your note expression performances on?

And why not just use separate instrument tracks for separate instruments?

Lets make it easy, just provide a single example of a work by anyone where note expression is used to achieve an effect you couldn't get last year.

Not exactly the same thing though. Polyphonic aftertouch, besides being supported by only a small part of the market,

Again, it's been in the MIDI spec since its inception in 1983. You're really arguing this THIS isn't supported, but VST3, which only has 2 or 3 hosts, IS? C'mon!

and virtually impossible in most every major virtual instrument,

If poly-aftertouch is impossible then "note expression" is impossible. Of course, neither are. The difference is that MANY have been using poly aftertouch since the 80s, and that there's a way to PERFORM it in real time, without having to edit curves on-screen.

doesn't allow for per-note modulation of ANY MIDI CC. You can't have three different polyphonic aftertouch settings per note.

No, it's just a single controller. But what instrument, real or virtual, allows this? There aren't even very many polyphonic instruments in the real world, most are monophonic (and for polyphonic instruments like guitar, we use a MIDI channel for each string, then we have controllers for each monophonic string). And again, if you think developers have trouble implementing THIS, then why do you think you're going to suddenly get a bunch of note expression compatible instruments? You're not, because it's a bad idea probably thought up by some no-talent, non-musician marketing droid.

With Note Expression, you can have different pan settings per note, along with different sustain pedal settings per note,

Again, how do you perform this? And even if my string section are sitting on a swingset, they're SEPARATE INSTRUMENTS.

along with different pitch bend per note, and all editable separately.

Oh boy! Endless editing! (And it WILL be endless when you're faced with the problems this paradigm brings up but makes no effort to mitigate.)

The MIDI spec currently doesn't allow this because MIDI CCs are per channel. You can't have multiples of the same CC value on a single channel,

...except for polyphonic aftertouch.

and therefore, can't have more than one set of polyphonic aftertouch settings.

"Settings"?

Even if you do have a synth the recognizes PA, if you want to use it on another CC like expression, you have to remap it.

Any synth that doesn't is severely lacking. But again, if they can't pull it off for ONE controller, what makes you think they're going to do it for n controllers?

Why not use separate tracks for separate instruments? Because having everything in one place can make it easier to edit without jumping back and forth, among other things.

I've already described the nightmare that editing note expression will HAVE to be earlier in this thread. http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 20#4397120

Also, you don't have to have a controller that supports it as you can use your mouse and the software to make the changes.

Not if you're a MUSICIAN!

There won't be a large amount of examples of it's use yet because Note Expression is still new, but the benefits ARE there, and they are not in the original MIDI spec.

(I'm not a Cubase user, btw. Just pointing out the difference.)

Brent

Congratulations on the new bill of goods you've bought. Feel free to check back in and tell me how wrong I am, just as soon as there's an example of somebody, ANYBODY, using it to do something I couldn't have done in the '80s.

[koolkeys]

Again, it's been in the MIDI spec since its inception in 1983. You're really arguing this THIS isn't supported, but VST3, which only has 2 or 3 hosts, IS? C'mon!

Actually, there are more VST3 plugins out there than there likely are plugs that support polyphonic aftertouch. Also, PA is MUCH MUCH older, while VST3 is still fairly new. Yet, you consistently hear about more VST3 plugs. You're arguing that a largely unsupported feature from the early 80s is somehow "keeping up" with something that is only around three years old. Oh, and Note Expression IS absolutely more flexible than PA, so it's not even really a comparison.

If poly-aftertouch is impossible then "note expression" is impossible. Of course, neither are. The difference is that MANY have been using poly aftertouch since the 80s, and that there's a way to PERFORM it in real time, without having to edit curves on-screen.

Who says there won't be a way to perform note expression? It's brand new, so how do you know?

Also, I didn't say it was impossible. I said it was virtually impossible with most instruments.

You're also still pretending that PA and NE are the same thing. They are not. NE is much more flexible. It can do everything PA can do and more. SO trying to compare them is still a useless point.

No, it's just a single controller. But what instrument, real or virtual, allows this? There aren't even very many polyphonic instruments in the real world, most are monophonic (and for polyphonic instruments like guitar, we use a MIDI channel for each string, then we have controllers for each monophonic string). And again, if you think developers have trouble implementing THIS, then why do you think you're going to suddenly get a bunch of note expression compatible instruments? You're not, because it's a bad idea probably thought up by some no-talent, non-musician marketing droid.

Uhhh, no, it's NOT a single controller. It seems you aren't really familiar with what Note Expression is, because you can use it on ANY CC VALUE. Not just a single controller. ANY controller.

Since the VST3.5 spec was just released, of course there aren't many instruments out that support it. All new forms of Halion do, and some devs such as Urs have stated their interest in porting their plug-ins to VST3.5. So maybe give it more than a month or two, perhaps?

A large part of why there is no support in software for polyphonic aftertouch is because it's rarely supported in the controllers available today. Heck, half the controllers out there don't even support MONO aftertouch.

And you mentioned that most instruments are monophonic. But that's assuming this will only be used in a limited way. Any monophonic instrument can be played in parts, right? And MOST of them do. How many string sections play only a single note? So the whole monophonic argument goes out the window. Most modern string libraries will let you play chords and they will automatically figure out divisi for you. Why? Because it's a pain to program. Combine this with NE and you have much more flexibility than before, all on a single track. It's not about instruments being monophonic, it's about programming them like people are already doing, but easier.

Plus, assuming that nobody will adopt it would be silly. Companies such as Native Instruments and VSL already jumped on VST Expression. Why wouldn't they jump on Note Expression as well? I bet they will. Just takes some time since it's a brand new spec that was just released to the public.

Again, how do you perform this? And even if my string section are sitting on a swingset, they're SEPARATE INSTRUMENTS.

See above. Even if the instrument doesn't do automatic divisi for you, you can still play chords with a single instrument most of the time. And you don't HAVE to perform it to use NE. You can adjust afterwards.

By the way, in a normal orchestral arrangement, the composer would generally program the divisi in, and then manually go from track to track, adjusting each individual part and note as needed. With NE, you do the same, but on a single track.

Also, let's look beyond "real" instruments. Take a synth like Zebra, which very well may go to 3.5(I can't say for sure, but just that there was interest). Imagine the possibilities with assigning various controllers to various knobs and adjusting them per note. Different modulations and LFO strength per note, etc. The possibilities are crazy endless.

Oh boy! Endless editing! (And it WILL be endless when you're faced with the problems this paradigm brings up but makes no effort to mitigate.)

Nope, actually it's LESS editing. See above. Without NE, a composer will be doing the EXACT SAME THING across multiple tracks. This is all on a single track. Less clicks, less jumping around, and less work.

[/quote]
...except for polyphonic aftertouch.

Incorrect. You can only have one polyphonic aftertouch per channel. Yes, PA gives you multiple values, but you can't apply the PA rules to pitch bend, expression, and multiple other CC values within a single channel. PA only gives you ONE instance of PA. Note Expression gives you conceivably as many instances as there are controllers to control.

"Settings"?

Values, settings, whatever.

Any synth that doesn't is severely lacking. But again, if they can't pull it off for ONE controller, what makes you think they're going to do it for n controllers?

You're still comparing them as if they are the same thing. They are not. See my above statements, they make it clear.

I've already described the nightmare that editing note expression will HAVE to be earlier in this thread. http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 20#4397120

I'm getting the impression more and more as we go along that you haven't actually USED it and that you don't fully embrace what Note Expression is.

Not if you're a MUSICIAN!

Ahhhh, so you can't be a musician and use your mouse to program or adjust values?

Guess what: I'm a musician. Played piano for over 20 years, along with other instruments along the way. I play most parts in by hand. But there is still editing, no matter what method you use. I defy you to find a professional piece where the musician played in everything by hand and didn't go back and edit later at all. A finished piece, not a "just testing this out" piece.

Musicians still program using mouse and keyboard. And even on the instruments they PLAY, as well.

Congratulations on the new bill of goods you've bought. Feel free to check back in and tell me how wrong I am, just as soon as there's an example of somebody, ANYBODY, using it to do something I couldn't have done in the '80s.

I didn't buy anything. I'm not a Cubase owner. I've USED Note Expression, but I didn't buy anything. Don't know what you're talking about there.

If you think NE has no value over polyphonic aftertouch, then you just don't understand NE. And I have a feeling that no matter how many times the difference is explained, you won't get it because you have some reason in your mind that doesn't let you take off the blinders.

They are different. Period. Whether you understand it or not is irrelevant.

Brent

[justin3am]

I have no horse in this VST3 race but this note expression concept is very interesting to me. Having independant control over every parameter for each voice of a polyphonic instrument, appeals to me specifically as a musician who uses sequencers as instruments. There are folks who use non-standard/modular environments to approximate this kind of flexibility but because most instruments don't support this functionality so we have to settle for approximation or build our own tools. This kind of stuff is very handy for samplers, where you can load multiple different samples to the same instrument, yet be able to articulate the material in different ways without having multiple instances of the instrument itself. There may not be many if any examples of this note expression technology but I can sure think of a lot of ways I'd like to use it.

...and if instruments can be controlled on a per voice basis, maybe in the future the whole signal chain of a DAW will work on a per voice basis. We could have EQs and other fx that are able to process each voice independently (or not) without having to setup separate inputs and outputs. Synths and effects could dynamically activate inputs and outputs as more voices are triggered.

Perhaps that sounds like overkill for anything that musicians are doing now but I don't care about that. I'm not worried about making beautiful music. I just make weird noises.

I will continue supporting devs regardless of which platforms/plug-in standards they use. It's all good as far as I'm concerned. I do have a special place in my heart for devs who push boundaries, though.

[AdmiralQuality]

Again, it's been in the MIDI spec since its inception in 1983. You're really arguing this THIS isn't supported, but VST3, which only has 2 or 3 hosts, IS? C'mon!

Actually, there are more VST3 plugins out there than there likely are plugs that support polyphonic aftertouch.

So? You need a 3.5 plug-in for note expression, I believe. And of those, how many actually implement it? You seem to think there's something in the SDK that helps developers... develop. But there's not, it only describes interface. So again, if they couldn't implement polyphonic aftertouch, how do you expect them to pull off note expression?

Also, PA is MUCH MUCH older, while VST3 is still fairly new. Yet, you consistently hear about more VST3 plugs. You're arguing that a largely

Because there's a marketing machine behind VST3(.x), where MIDI is an innocent, non-proprietary, open standard. And what's wrong with older?

unsupported feature from the early 80s is somehow "keeping up" with something that is only around three years old. Oh, and Note Expression IS absolutely more flexible than PA, so it's not even really a comparison.

Yes, I am arguing that. That's the point. This "new" stuff isn't new, and not only that, it's a REALLY bad idea.

And how is one controller stream "more flexible" than another? This is just more mindless marketing speak (maybe there's a job for you at SB!)

If poly-aftertouch is impossible then "note expression" is impossible. Of course, neither are. The difference is that MANY have been using poly aftertouch since the 80s, and that there's a way to PERFORM it in real time, without having to edit curves on-screen.

Who says there won't be a way to perform note expression? It's brand new, so how do you know?

Because I've only got two hands, and if I try to use two foot pedals I'll fall over (and besides, how could I ever possibly describe TO THE CONTROLLER, NOT TO THE INSTRUMENT, which of my two foot pedals I want applied to which of the notes I'm currently playing (or that are STILL SUSTAINING... again, think this through and you'll see the problems with it.)

Also, I didn't say it was impossible. I said it was virtually impossible with most instruments.

You're also still pretending that PA and NE are the same thing. They are not. NE is much more flexible. It can do everything PA can do and more. SO trying to compare them is still a useless point.

You already said that. But "more flexible" doesn't mean anything. PA can do everything NE can do, AND be peformed in real time. It can just do it to only one controller (which only in THE INSTRUMENT do you assign meaning to... maybe it's vibrato, maybe it's volume, maybe brightness, etc...)

No, it's just a single controller. But what instrument, real or virtual, allows this? There aren't even very many polyphonic instruments in the real world, most are monophonic (and for polyphonic instruments like guitar, we use a MIDI channel for each string, then we have controllers for each monophonic string). And again, if you think developers have trouble implementing THIS, then why do you think you're going to suddenly get a bunch of note expression compatible instruments? You're not, because it's a bad idea probably thought up by some no-talent, non-musician marketing droid.

Uhhh, no, it's NOT a single controller. It seems you aren't really familiar with what Note Expression is, because you can use it on ANY CC VALUE. Not just a single controller. ANY controller.

Apologies for the pronoun. I was referring to Poly Aftertouch as only being a single controller. Aside from that, it's just a controller stream. But an instrument (like mine) is free to use it as it would ANY CC VALUE. Those that don't, weren't trying hard enough. But do you think porting to VST 3.5 will make them try harder? Or that they'll just leave it unsupported.

Since the VST3.5 spec was just released, of course there aren't many instruments out that support it. All new forms of Halion do, and some devs such as Urs have stated their interest in porting their plug-ins to VST3.5. So maybe give it more than a month or two, perhaps?

So the worse sampler product out there supports it. Yay!

And again, again, feel free to reply in a month or two when all the wonderful music starts getting made.

A large part of why there is no support in software for polyphonic aftertouch is because it's rarely supported in the controllers available today. Heck, half the controllers out there don't even support MONO aftertouch.

Right. And the developers who make the products are musically talentless nerds who it wouldn't even occur to that they're missing it. (Kind of like the mod wheel in a certain fruity host.)

And you mentioned that most instruments are monophonic. But that's assuming this will only be used in a limited way. Any monophonic instrument can be played in parts, right? And MOST of them do. How many string sections play only a single note? So the whole monophonic argument goes out the window. Most

This is my point, sections are composed of SEPARATE instruments. That's how you score them, that's how you should fake them with synths, and that's how you can already edit any aspect of any of them in any existing editor.

modern string libraries will let you play chords and they will automatically figure out divisi for you. Why? Because it's a pain to program. Combine this

Wait a second. I thought you were looking forward to editing per-note curves with a mouse. Now you're talking about something being a pain to program. Just wait till you try using NE and you will understand the meaning of "pain"!

Why compose ourselves when the computer can DO IT FOR YOU? Anyway, this isn't a VST3.x feature, what you're looking for is what Roland are calling SuperNATURAL, and guess what the input/interface for that is? REGULAR MIDI!

with NE and you have much more flexibility than before, all on a single track. It's not about instruments being monophonic, it's about programming them like people are already doing, but easier.

How does forcing something inherently separate onto a single track make it MORE flexible?

You want it more complex, but easier. Think about this a bit. (Also, think about how often you even CARE about esoteria like this in your composition and arrangements.)

Plus, assuming that nobody will adopt it would be silly. Companies such as Native Instruments and VSL already jumped on VST Expression. Why wouldn't they jump on Note Expression as well? I bet they will. Just takes some time since it's a brand new spec that was just released to the public.

VST expression is just a new word for "automation", which is just a new word for "CC message". Yes, there are minor implementations differences, most of which will make no difference to anybody.

Again, how do you perform this? And even if my string section are sitting on a swingset, they're SEPARATE INSTRUMENTS.

See above. Even if the instrument doesn't do automatic divisi for you, you can still play chords with a single instrument most of the time. And you don't HAVE to perform it to use NE. You can adjust afterwards.

AFTERWARDS? Oh man... Again, musicians expect to PLAY their music. If it can't be performed, I'm outta here...

By the way, in a normal orchestral arrangement, the composer would generally program the divisi in, and then manually go from track to track, adjusting each individual part and note as needed. With NE, you do the same, but on a single track.

Also, let's look beyond "real" instruments. Take a synth like Zebra, which very well may go to 3.5(I can't say for sure, but just that there was interest). Imagine the possibilities with assigning various controllers to various knobs and adjusting them per note. Different modulations and LFO strength per note, etc. The possibilities are crazy endless.

I can already do that with separate instances of Zebra. In fact, I can do much, much, more. And without opening an ambiguous can of worms.

Oh boy! Endless editing! (And it WILL be endless when you're faced with the problems this paradigm brings up but makes no effort to mitigate.)

Nope, actually it's LESS editing. See above. Without NE, a composer will be doing the EXACT SAME THING across multiple tracks. This is all on a single track. Less clicks, less jumping around, and less work.

...except for polyphonic aftertouch.

Incorrect. You can only have one polyphonic aftertouch per channel.

I didn't say you could. Read what I wrote. "Except PA", meaning I can already do that with PA (yes, only one per channel).

And you said it yourself... "a composer will be doing the EXACT SAME THING across multiple tracks". Well, if you want THE EXACT SAME THING, you can already do that right now by using one track! But managing all the different curves going every which way (for notes that are HOW long? The host can't possibly know if the instrument is still in release stage, just for one example) isn't going to be any easier in one track, it's going to be MORE DIFFICULT.

Yes, PA gives you multiple values, but you can't apply the PA rules to pitch bend, expression, and multiple other CC values within a single channel. PA

That's the instrument's business, and MINE can.

only gives you ONE instance of PA. Note Expression gives you conceivably as many instances as there are controllers to control.

But I've only got two hands and two feet and one chair!

"Settings"?

Values, settings, whatever.

Any synth that doesn't is severely lacking. But again, if they can't pull it off for ONE controller, what makes you think they're going to do it for n controllers?

You're still comparing them as if they are the same thing. They are not. See my above statements, they make it clear.

I've already described the nightmare that editing note expression will HAVE to be earlier in this thread. http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 20#4397120

I'm getting the impression more and more as we go along that you haven't actually USED it and that you don't fully embrace what Note Expression is.

No, I haven't used it. I've watched the demos (which sounded horrible) and cringed. Have YOU used it? And I'm a developer, so it's my job to be able to imagine how stuff will work (or in this case, not work). And if you have tried it, why not post that awesome piece of music that you couldn't have made without it?

Not if you're a MUSICIAN!

Ahhhh, so you can't be a musician and use your mouse to program or adjust values?

Not on stage you can't!

Guess what: I'm a musician. Played piano for over 20 years, along with other instruments along the way. I play most parts in by hand. But there is still

So how does note expression apply to piano, for example?

editing, no matter what method you use. I defy you to find a professional piece where the musician played in everything by hand and didn't go back and edit later at all. A finished piece, not a "just testing this out" piece.

(Look, MUSICIANS!)

Musicians still program using mouse and keyboard. And even on the instruments they PLAY, as well.

Congratulations on the new bill of goods you've bought. Feel free to check back in and tell me how wrong I am, just as soon as there's an example of somebody, ANYBODY, using it to do something I couldn't have done in the '80s.

I didn't buy anything. I'm not a Cubase owner. I've USED Note Expression, but I didn't buy anything. Don't know what you're talking about there.

You've bought an idea.

If you think NE has no value over polyphonic aftertouch, then you just don't understand NE. And I have a feeling that no matter how many times the difference is explained, you won't get it because you have some reason in your mind that doesn't let you take off the blinders.

They are different. Period. Whether you understand it or not is irrelevant.

Brent

I understand it inside out Brent, it's my job. Let's let people vote with their feet (or fingers) on this one though and see how it shakes out. But I know how I would produce a piece with a bunch of monophonic parts (on separate tracks) and the polyphonic parts would (inherently) share controller data, EXCEPT for pressure, which is the only per-note polyphonic thing I (or anyone else for that matter) can encode while performing anyway.

[trimph1]

[AdmiralQuality]

Point form problems with the concept of note expression. If I've missed solutions to any of these, please let us know.

• How do I edit curves for two or more notes at the same time?
• ...What if these notes only overlap for part of their total length? Where does the curve editor for a note begin or end?
• How does the host know if my instrument has a long release time and a note is still sounding? Does a note's curve extend to infinity after the note-on event? And if so, what about the next note of the same pitch? Is that a new voice (aka cycle assignment), or the same voice retriggered? And which curve does it use? The old one? A new, overlapping one?
• How does the host know if an instrument plug-in is actually sounding a note? How does the host know how many notes of polyphony a particular instrument is? (If at all. Will it understand the different style used for monophonic lines?) How will the host know what voice assignment scheme the instrument using? Which voices have or haven't been stolen? Or will I be editing curves for notes that aren't even sounding?
• What about legato triggering in monophonic mode? Can I specify that preference in the host so I can know whether to expect a legato played note to retrigger or not? (No.) Will the host think all my legato (overlapped) notes in a lead line have their own NE curves? Even though I'm conceptually playing a monophonic part?

I could go on and on, that was just quickly off the top of my head...