All Uppercase Roman Numerals Analysis

[JumpingJackFlash]

it is a different approach to chords and scales (the reference is the major scale, regardless of the scale you're in.

In a minor key, some chords can be major or minor and still be diatonic. You might encounter IV or iv, V or v, and so on. The reason is that in minor keys, the 6th and 7th degrees are variables, sometimes sharpened, sometimes not (see melodic minor). It has nothing to do with the major scale, and so saying you're using that as 'a reference' doesn't make much sense.

[rbarata]

Let me give an example:

D Maj scale: D E F# G A B C# D

D min scale: D E F G A Bb C D

The 3 chord in the major scale is, in the old notation, mentioned as "iii". In the notation I'm talking about should be "IIIm" or "IIImi".

In the minor scale, the same 3 chord, in the old notation is "III". In the "new" notation is "bIII" because the F# of the major scale is lowered to F. Knowing that the third F#-A is a minor 3rd in the major scale, a flat minor third is a major 3rd. Did you noticed how the 3rd of the major scale was used as "the reference"?

I hope I was clear. Basically, while in the old notation the lower - uppercase indicates the quality of the interval, in this "new" notation you have to know the quality of the intervals taken from the major scale and apply flats or sharps to describe them in the minor scales.

[Gamma-UT]

Let me give an example:

D Maj scale: D E F# G A B C# D

D min scale: D E F G A Bb C D

The 3 chord in the major scale is, in the old notation, mentioned as "iii". In the notation I'm talking about should be "IIIm" or "IIImi".

In the minor scale, the same 3 chord, in the old notation is "III". In the "new" notation is "bIII" because the F# of the major scale is lowered to F. Knowing that the third F#-A is a minor 3rd in the major scale, a flat minor third is a major 3rd. Did you noticed how the 3rd of the major scale was used as "the reference"?

I hope I was clear. Basically, while in the old notation the lower - uppercase indicates the quality of the interval, in this "new" notation you have to know the quality of the intervals taken from the major scale and apply flats or sharps to describe them in the minor scales.

You'd have saved a lot of time and confusion if you had simply posted that in the first place and not been so obscure with your earlier answers.

bIII in this context is a major chord. The use of the 'b' to denote a flat has nothing to do with the Roman numerals being all caps. You could conceivably have a 'biii' when using chromatic mediants, or you might write it as bIIIm, but in both cases, the notation tells you the quality of the chord. This use of flats in the notation is handy when using parallel modes within a key (normally the minor, but could be any of the other modes), so referencing anything to the major is a reasonable idea.

In general, the all-caps system is easier to cope with on a keyboard, which is why it often gets used on the web, because you can write VIIdim instead of hunting around the keyboard for the ° symbol to write vii°. But that consideration is separate to the writing of chords with flatted roots (like the bIII).

[rbarata]

You'd have saved a lot of time and confusion if you had simply posted that in the first place and not been so obscure with your earlier answers.

I started to learn theory very recently so forgive me if I was not so clear.

bIII in this context is a major chord. The use of the 'b' to denote a flat has nothing to do with the Roman numerals being all caps.

Exactly, the "function" of the upper-lower case is eliminated.

This use of flats in the notation is handy when using parallel modes within a key (normally the minor, but could be any of the other modes), so referencing anything to the major is a reasonable idea.

It's possible to see another example of this major scale reference: minor scale degres description:

Maj scale: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Min scale: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

Chord analysis:

Major

I IIm IIIm IV V VIm VIIº

Minor

Im IIº bIII IVm Vm bVI bVII

Same flats in the same degrees, in the minor scale.

So, my question was: when using this notation, to describe the major scale chords is it usual to describe them as IIIm (for example) or just III (assuming that the user knows in advance that it is a minor chord?

In general, the all-caps system is easier to cope with on a keyboard, which is why it often gets used on the web...

Well, I couldn't find anything in the web using this notation. Do you know any good book explaining this, or exercises?

[Gamma-UT]

So, my question was: when using this notation, to describe the major scale chords is it usual to describe them as IIIm (for example) or just III (assuming that the user knows in advance that it is a minor chord?

iii = IIIm = IIImin = mediant minor chord
III = IIIM = IIImaj = mediant major chord

If someone writes III and means a minor chord, they are just being lazy and assuming that the performer or whoever will understand that it should be a minor chord. Jazz musicians may write II-V-I to refer to the overall structure of a standard. It's understood that, technically within a major key, it should be ii-V-I but, as it's jazz, no-one is going to stick to just those chords, so it's not really a big deal.

[rbarata]

Ok, so even knowing the major intervals' qualities, it must always be stated.

And, again...do you know any books on theory (or site) that uses this notation?

Thanks

[Aroused by JarJar]

I would strongly suggest that you stick to either the traditional functional system, which is very well known and makes sense, or the Nashville system, also known and also makes sense. I'm sure others here would agree whole-heartedly, but they're probably cringing at the thought of even touching this.

Once your out there in real life quickly writing this stuff with a pen in order to get to actually making music with other musicians as well and clearly as possible, you'll see what a bizarre mistake it is to train yourself to use a more difficult, less clear, and probably almost completely unknown system of notation.

[jancivil]

I'll just be frank and say this endeavor is a huge waste of your time. there is a normative useful way of proceeding available to you and there is no compelling reason to wonder about this other way.

[planetmullins]

Hello my friends

I can't find any site explaining the All Uppercase Roman Numerals Analysis.

Anyone knows one?

Thank you

Hi-When you are looking at a chart on a music stand 10-15 feet away during a live gig and the light man is having a field day, you aren't going to have much luck seeing those teeny little dots over the II chord. Many college grads use the little Roman numerals and most pro musicians I have worked with draw those Romans out nice and huge so they can see them from ten feet away on a gig.