Music Theory books based on Piano Rolls not Staffs?

[gdev1981]

Just a thought, how is piano roll any worse than guitar tabs?

[Ogg Vorbis]

Piano roll was used in composition for first time by Schoenberg

I was thinking Nancarrow...

[Doug1978-OLD]

Piano roll was used in composition for first time by Schoenberg

I was thinking Nancarrow...

That's actually a pretty cool video Ogg.

[anomandaris1]

There was book with essays by Schoenberg in google-books with a picture within - drawed piano roll with notes - it was similar to these that we use in the sequencers nowadays.

[fmr]

OK, OP asked for books about "MUSIC THEORY". Allow me to list some topics:
This implies teaching about polyphony, counterpoint, the transition from modal to tonal music and how did we reach that, how music was structured in ancient modal/polyphonic method of composition and how it became structured in a tonal world, the change from polyphony to accompanied melody, the tonalities and their inter-relationships (the major/minor circle of fifths), the major/minor dicotomy, the harmony concepts AND the structural functions of harmony, the transitions from tonality through chromaticism to atonality, new modes, etc.
Sincerely, I think that, visually, notation has a big advantage over other methods of representing music when we approach all these subjects, which wil become VERY confusing if we would use a piano roll.
It0s the same about the keyboard. The keyboard was divided in a seven/five keygroup both to allow an easy execution of octaves, but also, and most of all, to allow a visual reference for the player. This was something that evolved slowly, and we reached that concept after lots of experiments.
People have been proposing other controlling concepts. Some work better than others, depending on the purposes they try to fulfill. But the keyboard has remained as one of the most effective "controllers" available - look at the kind of virtuosistic playing techniques it allows, and try to reproduce them using any other controlling environment. People should not neglect tradition - things are what they are for several reasons, and our ancestors were intelligent and resourceful people. They may not have the technological advances we now have at their disposal, but they were already very resourceful, and the solutions they built are still nevertheles valid.
This is true for both the music keyboard as well as music notation.

[herodotus]

If someone comes up with such a book, they're looking for suckers to chump.

Hmmmmm......

[japut_99]

The OP should check the "grimoire" series for a true look at theory without writing notes. In fact theory makes more sense when you take away the staff. It becomes more about 'shape' or spacing between notes (intervals) I don't believe this is opinion. Ask the many thirteen year olds that I teach it too on guitar or bass or even piano/keyboard(which I do not play but understand). Enharmonic naming are only important when a common language is needed between musicians(horns, woodwinds eflat, bflat etc) that have instruments written in different keys.

I always make the street sign analogy. Say you live on mulberry lane. You do not need the street sign to get home but your new friend is going to need them to get to your house. A major scale is a major scale, just placed in a different place. Always 1,w,w,h,w,w,w,h- rinse and repeat.

I learned it without reading although I do read. As always the most important part of written music is timing, feel and rhythm. as always ymmv

[jancivil]

it depends what level one wants to get a grip on. you've made a good argument for not needing to read to get a grasp of lines/they're just intervals.
an Indian classical musician has no particular need for staves and this form of notation isn't used. the music is melodic (and rhythmic) taught by ear training and placement on an instrument where an instrument is used. key isn't important, there are not changes of key, one has their tonic and that's that.

but if you get into harmony, writing in western notation gives you a visual and a solid frame of reference conceptually.

your assertion that enharmonic naming isn't important except to transposing instruments isn't apt. there are physical reasons for horns having their bases in keys.
There is context in harmonic music as per key. I have already made the case that if one thinks a C minor triad contains a D#, one is going to be lost as per analysis of harmony and is going to be tend to be deficient in understanding of intervals in musical context. your statements imply that an augmented second is perfectly equivalent to a minor third. this is incorrect also. there is context in harmony; expert string players and wind players and singers that can alter the inflection of the intonation to match a harmony in concert with the other players, making it more 'just' as it were, WILL DO JUST THIS. there are more than 12 useful notes available, unless of course one is so restricted by their instrument.
(I find problems all the time when restricted to 12 tones per se. some of these compromises result in intervals which aren't good harmonically. this is a known issue. this is, if anything, more true for melodic practice. Other systems of music that are melody-oriented and eschew harmony (Indian, Persian, Arabic etc) won't use equal temperament, as it's just deficient for the purpose.)

this stuff may not be important for everyone's particular understanding, but a thorough-going basis in 'music theory' in harmonic music will not exclude these essential concepts.

[japut_99]

your assertion that enharmonic naming isn't important except to transposing instruments isn't apt. there are physical reasons for horns having their bases in keys.
There is context in harmonic music as per key. I have already made the case that if one thinks a C minor triad contains a D#,etc......

The context is always what note came before and how does the next note relates. Always.

Enharmonic naming does nothing. It only exist because you have to move onto next note and yes, you need context of the note before. Is a augmented 2nd the same as a flat 3rd? Depends on what comes next. Naming is only there to help you conceptualize this exact fact. Just like 'Dorian' is there to describe 'Ionian' but in a different circumstance.

D# or Eb? Why bother when naming it doesn't change its Hertz or frequency content at all and I would still have to think in forms of the triad to figure out if it were an augmented2 or flat3. I would rather think of it as a 'pool' of notes. This works. That doesn't because its out of the possibilities of the 'Key'.

In fact, the major scale can be adequately/accurately told as a set of three, three note groupings. WS,WS. HS,WS. WS,HS. Of course I'm still having to think about the triad in this form but its in a much smaller, more manageable way. I'm not saying there is not more in there as far as 'musical vocabulary' but once you understand that 'vocabulary' is this grouping it becomes more than adequate. Believe me it doesn't happen over night but you will have a 'super ear' most likely by the time you do get there.

Btw I just wanted to ask you ,jancivil, what your primary instrument was/were?
I myself started this on six string guitar many years ago, which is the same as the keyboard, which is the same as how horns formulate their major scale. It helps to see your perception, knowing what you play, how you have learned it etc. Great discussion though.

[japut_99]

p.s. Jancivil

Checked your tunes and dug them a lot. I myself am into 'exotic' movement in music. So they were right up my alley and there is no way that I would've heard the keybed (which is what I think you are playing, correct me if I'm wrong) and thought 'this guy don't know the first thing about....'

[japut_99]

I meant to add that enharmonic naming is of course useful in the written aspect of music. The communication of music. Otherwise, f# vibrates the same as gb.

[gdev1981]

I think this thread needs more people showing off!

Basically, if a scale has a 'D' it shouldn't have a 'D#' as well, but an 'Eb' instead to avoid representing the same note twice.

On a piano you play D# with a smile on your face and Eb with a sulky face to make it sound more "just" (or you could subtly re-tune your piano between key changes).

[FroshCup]

Considering the staff/piano roll/clef as a means (or obstacle) to understanding music theory as a whole seems odd to me, personally.

If you're going to go all the way, you may as well just understand that you're dealing with frequencies - how they've come to 'go together' and why.

Sure, it helps to have scales explained to you but those can become constricting very quickly if you paint yourself into that corner early on.

Personally, I've garnished better results from learning about length, gauge, resulting frequency and general physics than I have out of any 'traditional' music theory.

Spare drums. You just have to feel the drums.

[tapper mike]

It0s the same about the keyboard. The keyboard was divided in a seven/five keygroup both to allow an easy execution of octaves, but also, and most of all, to allow a visual reference for the player. This was something that evolved slowly, and we reached that concept after lots of experiments.
People have been proposing other controlling concepts. Some work better than others, depending on the purposes they try to fulfill. But the keyboard has remained as one of the most effective "controllers" available - look at the kind of virtuosistic playing techniques it allows, and try to reproduce them using any other controlling environment. People should not neglect tradition - things are what they are for several reasons, and our ancestors were intelligent and resourceful people. They may not have the technological advances we now have at their disposal, but they were already very resourceful, and the solutions they built are still nevertheles valid.
This is true for both the music keyboard as well as music notation.

Not all great idea's make it to the forefront.
The Janko keyboard was intented to replace the keyboard long ago.
The only place it ever took off was/is japan, in the form of the chromotone.

At the time of its invention, the Jankó keyboard was hailed as revolutionary. Arthur Rubinstein said of the Jankó piano, "If I were to begin my career anew it would be on this keyboard." Franz Liszt said "This invention will have replaced the present piano keyboard in fifty years' time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janko_keyboard

Regardless of the instrument you choose a foundation in notation is always the fastest route to musical comprehension.

[seacouch]

I think this thread needs more people showing off!

There's a fine art to composing questions with the proper balance of pheromones to activate the "pissing contest" reaction among know-it-alls. But when it's done right, it's quite spectacular.