KVR Audio

nighthaze · Post by **nighthaze** » Wed May 11, 2011 1:29 pm

Hi guys,

Hopefully you can enlighten this noob here. Basically I've started writing the melody/bassline first, and I've used the C blues scale (C D# F F# G A#). I'm a little confused on where to go from here because I don't know what key "fits" with this scale and what chords I should use (well, obviously it would be in C, but it's not minor and certainly not major). Using just the notes of the blues scale the chords are kind of meh and the progression is lacking. I know that the bassline should share the notes with the currently playing chord but what chords can I use beside the ones using the blues scale?

Many thanks

Bobbotov · Post by **Bobbotov** » Wed May 11, 2011 3:48 pm

Needless to say volumes have been written about this. But for a beginner, understand that the basic blues progression is comprised of I-IV-V chords or, for example, C, F, G. These can be major or minor with many variations through additional chords sometimes being added and/or chord substitutions. Also the order and number of measures in which they are played has many variations.

A scale that can be used with Cm could be C, D, Eb, F, Gb, G, Ab (or A), Bb, C. The Gb in blues (and Jazz)is called a "blue note," or more precisely, a flatted fifth. A pleasing and very common combination for the I-IV-V progression could be Cm7, Fm7, G7. 9ths can also be added and is also very common so you could have Cm7/9, Fm7/9 and G7/9 or in major - C7/9, F7/9, G7/9. The notes common from the above scale for those chords would be:

Cm7 - C, D (9th), Eb, G, Bb
Fm7 - F, G (9th) Ab, Bb, C, D, Eb
G7 - G, D, F, Ab(flat 9th)

With the G7 chord, the Eb, Gb, Ab, and Bb could be passing tones resolving to the major scale notes of Eb-D, Gb-G (or F), Ab-G (or A) and Bb-B (or A). In other words they can be played over the G7 chord but they have to resolve to a note in the G scale. For example, you could play a chromatic run for G7 of G, Ab-A, Bb-B.

The best way to learn is to listen to blues recordings of different types to hear how all of these chord progressions and scales are applied.

Knowing KVR there will be others that come along with additional info since as I said, volumes have been written about this.

For chords and scale my favorite handy reference site is this one:

http://www.apassion4jazz.net/keys.html

It can help a lot in understanding the relationship of scales to chords.

C00kie · Post by **C00kie** » Wed May 11, 2011 4:26 pm

Blues comes from the heart, not from the head...
Just improvise and you will find automatically what chords and notes work and which don't.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Thu May 12, 2011 5:58 pm

nighthaze wrote:Hi guys,

Hopefully you can enlighten this noob here. Basically I've started writing the melody/bassline first, and I've used the C blues scale (C D# F F# G A#). I'm a little confused on where to go from here because I don't know what key "fits" with this scale and what chords I should use (well, obviously it would be in C, but it's not minor and certainly not major). Using just the notes of the blues scale the chords are kind of meh and the progression is lacking. I know that the bassline should share the notes with the currently playing chord but what chords can I use beside the ones using the blues scale?

Many thanks

You have already a problem with how you 'spell' the notes, it won't help you obtain key, but do the opposite.

what you've given there is a six note row that is the minor pentatonic ON C, with an added tone, F# or Gb.
as you have observed it isn't really minor; but there is the minor pentatonic with an extra note which neighbors the F and G, F#/Gb, one of the 'blue notes'.

You want C to Eb, there: that is a MINOR THIRD [cf., minor pentatonic]; to your sequencer there is no diff, obviously, but to a musician there is.

the row you want reads: C Eb F F# G Bb. You have two flats there; if you want a 'key signature' to indicate where you are key-wise, you need two flats in it. If you want chords for that row, you want the chords to be congruent with that. If you approach it with them sharps, you'll get lost. Find an article such as a wiki that outlays the circle of fifths. With the sharps you have there, eg., the A#, that's the fifth sharp in a circle of seven, and it's not easily congruent with your basic, root note, C. Find a circle of fifths and compare a key with five sharps and see about that C, and you might begin to see how those sharps aren't right.

"I know that the bassline should share the notes with the currently playing chord" isn't right. For instance a walking bass uses passing notes. What you say there restricts you considerable, to chord tones only in a line/you'd only have arpeggios as bass lines... and the idea isn't practical. It isn't going to help you find chords, but get in your way.

Play some music, find out playing in a band how some of your notions work, have someone that has some chords at hand play them and pose your blues scale against it and experiment... prepare yourself for the task of 'writing'. A playwright will have read some lines with other actors on a stage, a writer of a book has read and analyzed some books; music is not a different story, and having a sequencer available won't get you around this, one must gain basic experience with music in the first place.

Audiosprite · Post by **Audiosprite** » Fri May 13, 2011 2:28 am

^ Thinking of the m3 as a D# isn't really a wrong way to look at it, though. Often it's thought of as a #9 instead, in a major blues setting.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat May 21, 2011 4:32 pm

the very existence of a sharp 9 is predicated on a major third in the chord. Otherwise it's just a minor third and D# is misleading. Try again.

Audiosprite · Post by **Audiosprite** » Sun May 22, 2011 3:47 am

jancivil wrote:the very existence of a sharp 9 is predicated on a major third in the chord. Otherwise it's just a minor third and D# is misleading. Try again.

You just agreed with me again. Now I know I'm right.

jplanet · Post by **jplanet** » Sun May 22, 2011 4:02 am

Jancivil is correct - the blues scale is taken from degrees of a major or minor scale, and the 9th is not one of them. In a major blues scale, the 2nd note is a major 3rd, not a double-sharp 9th...

Electrobop · Post by **Electrobop** » Sun May 22, 2011 4:34 am

My type of 12 bar blues:

D |C-7b5 F#7 |B- E7|A- D7 |

G7 |G- C7 |F#- |F- Bb7 |

E- |A7 |D7 |E- A7 ||

Electrobop

nighthaze · Post by **nighthaze** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:13 pm

Thanks for the detailed replies guys. Admittedly it's a lot to take in, but I'm willing to learn.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:24 pm

Audiosprite wrote:
jancivil wrote:the very existence of a sharp 9 is predicated on a major third in the chord. Otherwise it's just a minor third and D# is misleading. Try again.
You just agreed with me again. Now I know I'm right.

No, you are certainly not right. I did not agree with you. Can you read English? 'Otherwise' is a clue to the differences in yours and my statements.

If it's a sharp nine there is a major third in the chord. OTHERWISE it is a minor tenth, a tenth being third plus an octave. Which from C is an Eb. C, D, E. Three letters. That's a third. C to D# is an augmented second (or ninth). C, D, two letters. A second. A ninth is a second plus an octave.

This couldn't be more clear. Spelling things wrong for a newb is going to be misleading and a bad way to proceed. I am trying to help the OP and provide the best information to all. OTOH, you seem interested in trying to gainsay me and now you're invested in 'I'm right'.

jopy · Post by **jopy** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:44 pm

I hate to start a pile-on, but Jan is definitely right. Thinking of a C blues scale with a d sharp will lead to all sorts of confusion regarding relative majors and the circle of fifths later on.

someone called simon · Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:24 pm

jplanet wrote:In a major blues scale, the 2nd note is a major 3rd, not a double-sharp 9th...

Why isn't the 2nd note of the scale the actual 2nd, ie, why is that left out in a blues scale? I understand in soloing it's not heard often, but it features in the V cord of the scale. Likewise I also see the 6th omitted in some of the posts above.

someone called simon · Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:34 pm

jancivil wrote:
Audiosprite wrote:
jancivil wrote:the very existence of a sharp 9 is predicated on a major third in the chord. Otherwise it's just a minor third and D# is misleading. Try again.
You just agreed with me again. Now I know I'm right.
No, you are certainly not right. I did not agree with you.

I wonder if this confusion might be something that I had trouble grasping years ago, as someone who doesn't read music. And that is, for notation, each note of the scale has to have a different NAME. so in the Key of C, you can't call the 3rd note D ANYTHING, because then there's no name for the second note of the scale. The third note has to be called E SOMETHING.

So while D# and Eb sound the same, when you're talking theory and notation etc one is right and one is wrong.

Just because of the way i learned music, an Eb will always be an Eb in my head, even if its in the key of E, when it really must be called a D#. I suspect people who learned guitar from strumming chords may have this kind of problem. You learn an Eb chord, and that's the name that sticks for that note. If you never encounter notation or theory, you' won't think if it as a D# easily. That's my experience anyway.

The notes sound the same, but they must have the correct name if you're talking theory and notation etc, or everyone will get hopelessly confused.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:42 pm

theory about 'a blues scale' isn't much of anything to worry about. Theory should never be put in front of practice.

if someone insists to you that something isn't done, ignore it, if you find doing it sounds right just do it.

Over a minor chord, that major 2nd or ninth gives you that little poignant twinge which is very effective and you can really lean on it. I saw someone say here that you would avoid the major sixth, and they only really demonstrated they'd read something about the thing and could regurgitate that. On a seventh chord, say the I7, leaning on the sixth against that can be right pungent, bending it into the 7th, it's done all the time. Harmonica players like it, gittar players like it... it anticipates IV, for one thing.

On E7: C#>G, C#>G, get obnoxious with it headed into the A7...

Blues scale