How to combine modes??

[felipescalador]

I already understand the thory of the modes..how depending of the chords it could imply a single or various modes.

but how do you combine them?

for example I have this song that goes

Emin then Bmin and I am using Edorian.. How will I proceed to another mode?

lets say I want to go to E phrygian.. I just build a progression of E prygian and jam using E prygian over those chords??

I hope it makes sense..

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And finally how do you overdub a song??

I see people make complex sounding music with multiple different lines.. which if analyzed one by one they are infact not that complex..

rules for making multiple lines that sound good together??

lets take again E dorian

E - F# - G - A - B - C# - D

I build a i - v - i progression that goes

Emin - Bmin - Emin

-Now I for example just grab a bass synth and make whatever line I want using the notes within the scale?? Should I target a specific note?? Should I emphazise the "E" with the bass synth so it will have that dorain flavour???

Now time to make a lead-- just use again as I want the notes within the scale?

so.. I want to add more lines to fill the spectrum.. I grab a guitar.. just use the notes within the scale to jam?

°I cant seem to make anything sound good javascript:emoticon('')

I hope it makes sense


and finally thanks in advance any help is greatly apreciated

-

[tapper mike]

Modal playing is for certain types of music. jazz some but not all rock and some but not all pop and some funk. It's not really for blues with the exception of turnarounds. Modal playing is not for techno. In non modal playing you keep all the notes from one scale. This causes connocance/dissonance/connosance which is fine if you are resolving to the tonic.
Take an e minor pentatonic and play it over E minor. All the notes jive. Take that same e minor pentatonic and play it over a Bm chord. Only the A and B notes jive. The rest are disonnace or tension which creates a conflict of tone. If the Chord moves back to Eminor and the scale remains the same you have resolution because all the pieces fit again.




To play modally you have several options. If say your are going from Em to Bm you could simply play in key (G)You could also go from one dorian to another dorian or any minor mode to any other. Usually people operate on "tonal centers" Find a range of notes that would fit either/or but an exact key.

Em E-G-B
Bm B-D-F#

This gives you D-E-F#-G-A-B
Now it could be a D major scale or it could be a G major scale. In Jazz 3rds and 7ths are guide tones. for the Eminor chord G and D are the guide tones. So you want to approach your guide tones as you are moving along. Then fill in the spaces inbetween with notes derived from your tonal center or scale tone. So long as you are moving from guide tone to guide tone you have motion and chord context.

Now lets say you are using a different guide tone such as the root. The same methodology can be applied. Map your chord tones to the first beat. Leave the rest blank. Then fill in the last tone of the measure to be either a half step above or below your target note.
Even though this song is very camply I've laid it all out.
http://tappermike.com/?q=node/4
Notice how I mix arpeggios with scale tones to connect the dots.
The first beat of each bar has the tonic.

The same holds true for melodies and solo's guide tones help you focus on where you are and where you are going to. Between the guide tones is where you fill with a combination of tonal center/scale tones and arpeggios to glue the motion together.

Re Overdubb,
Everyone does it all the time in every daw and before them. The secret is don't overplay your first part. It will crowd out the rest that follow. There is a concept called "In the pocket" where by one part fills the holes left behind. In order for a pocket to exist it there has to be space for it. There also is a concept called call and response which can be used by one instrument or more then one. Create and unanswered phrase and just play that part. Then create a phrase that answers the first.

[jancivil]

I already understand the thory of the modes..how depending of the chords it could imply a single or various modes.

but how do you combine them?

for example I have this song that goes

Emin then Bmin and I am using Edorian.. How will I proceed to another mode?

lets say I want to go to E phrygian.. I just build a progression of E prygian and jam using E prygian over those chords??

Modal playing should be in concord with whatever chords you play. Real modal playing is not driven by chords, the chords are some clothes you put on the body of the mode that are cut to fit.

You have found concordance with a two chord thing and E Dorian. The character of this set of tones relates to E, that's why it's E dorian. "Em to Bm you could simply play in key (G)" Do ignore that. You asked about modes and he gave you a major key. E dorian is NOT a major key.
Even if you want to compare E dorian to a major key it won't key of G, ie., it would have the key signature with two sharps, like the key D does. You have the most concordant of the seven church modes for those two chords already.

I'm sorry, Mike, I have to clarify some bad information (again. nothing personal, but that's just misleading and I can't let it stand):
'Guide notes' in jazz are guides for harmonic practice, essentially ii/V/I-derived harmonic progression towards a (often temporary) goal. That is not modal playing, that is choosing notes to fit a chord in a progression towards a goal. That's the opposite of modal usage. Modal playing in jazz got going with Miles Davis et al MOVED AWAY from ii/V/I deliberately. It's about a steady ground and you exploit the character of the mode, which is tones as relating to that tonic chord. They were following Indian music etc to do it.

These could be the same notes as a mode, just as D major is the same as E dorian. To say you're doing E dorian over an Em chord [ii] where the tonic is D, this HAS NO MEANING. If the tonality is D major, that's a D major scale. Period.

To address the E phrygian question, the chords that will fit that body comfortably will simply have concordance, and no clashes with that row of tones [E F G A B C D]. E minor, F. E minor, D minor. E minor, C.
All of these keep to white keys just like E phrygian do. B minor has that F# and sounds bad due to a clash.

Keep it simple, there is no call for hyperactivity, ENJOY that mode. It has a perfectly beautiful body, you don't need to dress it up artificially and keep changing the outfit.

[tapper mike]

Jazz operates from chord progressions. Melodies/solos are navigations thru the progressions. Just as Blues operates through progressions such as the 12 bar blues pattern.

Jazz, blues, rock are all dictated by the progression. The progression is not an afterthought or window dressing.

http://www.jazzguitarlessons.net/jazz-i ... ion-2.html


http://www.freejazzinstitute.org/showpo ... 27_EdByrne

And most importantly - Emily Remler: Bebop and Swing Guitar pt.3

Pick up at 1:30
The guide tone line is the smoothest set of notes connecting thru the chord changes.

Who is Emily Remler?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Remler

[izonin]

In traditional jazz (Charlie Parker, Joe Pass) the improvised solo is built around the chords, using chromatic passing tones to connect the broken arpeggios. In modal jazz (Bill Evans, Miles Davis, fusion) improvised melodies are derived from the modes that correspond to the chords in the progression.

The most natural way to create a fluid connection, is to play the same phrase, raising or flatting some of the notes to fit the new mode.

[Sascha Franck]

First of, before I might be getting into any details:
- Why would you want to proceed to whatever other mode? Is there a strong compositional (or whatever) reason?
- How do you usually "establish" modes?

- Sascha

[istyle]

Like someone said,"learn them all,let them absorb in you then forget them"
Eventually you will notice it when the time has come,when you write something that needs different mode
on their way,the melody will tell you:)

[psenior]

I try not to think in modes but if you do that's OK with me. Your chords are Em and Bm. Your scale is E Dorian. You want to go from E Dorian to E Phrygian. Tapper Mike has spelled out the two chords for us. He also suggests using the 3rd or the 7th of the chord as a target to resolve to. Yes, that is good musical practice, but the truth is that you can pick whatever note you want from E Phrygian to be the target note as long as you know how to resolve to it. You are the composer & the music is going to be what you make it.

This is the method we will use to resolve to the target note. Let's call it "surrounding notes." For example, let's say you pick C as the note you want your E Dorian melodic line to resolve to. C is in E Phrygian but not in E Dorian. We are ending our beautiful melody over Bm and start descending down E Dorian scale to our target note, C.

Ask yourself the following question: "What notes from E Dorian surround C?" The answer is B and C#. So, to resolve your melodic line and end up in E Phrygian, the last 3 notes will be either C# B C or B C# C. Of course, your rhythmic phrasing must be strong or it may not sound as good as you probably want it to.

Now, you don't have to end your line here if you don't want to. You can keep going in E Phrygian. I feel using this "surrounding notes" method along with good rhythmic phrasing will give you a unique and interesting-sounding transition from E Dorian to E Phrygian.

This method works almost anywhere you can think of to apply it. Most musicians don't know about this technique, but the masters do and you can hear it all the time, usually when you catch yourself listening to a song and thinking "WTF did that guy just play? I like it but I can't figure it out!"

By the way, when I think of E Phrygian, I don't think of an E minor triad as the chord. I think of Fmaj7b5 over an E bass note as the chord.

As far as overdubs go, that is a studio recording technique to fix mistakes. I try not to use it for songwriting purposes. I believe most electronic musicians record tons of parts into their DAW and then later edit and mix everything down until they're happy. I suggest you try to imagine the music you are hearing in your head very clearly and LOUDLY, then immediately go and record it.

I hope this information helps you get where you want to go.

[ecsmix]

Hey psenior, always like your posts and explanations.

Let me know if the technique you just used in your post is similar to the Ed Byrne's linear method.

http://www.byrnejazz.com/upload/portfolio/17_2.pdf

Let me know what you guys think about it.

[psenior]

Hi ecsmix,

I can't say for sure because the link you provided is just an excerpt of one of his books. I do know that Ed is very knowledgeable and I enjoy reading his numerous jazz music theory posts on the allaboutjazz.com forum. You could probably go there and ask him this question directly if you like.

[ecsmix]

Ask yourself the following question: "What notes from E Dorian surround C?" The answer is B and C#. So, to resolve your melodic line and end up in E Phrygian, the last 3 notes will be either C# B C or B C# C. Of course, your rhythmic phrasing must be strong or it may not sound as good as you probably want it to.

Looks like it, but it's an awesome tip.

Thanks.

[jancivil]

I try not to think in modes but if you do that's OK with me.

thank you for permission. It is the natural way for me to think musically and I have done for forty years, hence I know what I'm talking about when I do. You equally have my permission to avoid thinking about it but it reveals you as the wrong teacher for this lesson. I'd say your efforts in not thinking were successful. Sorry.

Your chords are Em and Bm. Your scale is E Dorian. You want to go from E Dorian to E Phrygian. Tapper Mike has spelled out the two chords for us. He also suggests using the 3rd or the 7th of the chord as a target to resolve to. Yes, that is good musical practice,

It has nothing whatever to do with the context of modes or moving from a mode to another. As I have said, the mode is about the tonic and some tones in relationship to it. That is the OP's context and I'm going to insist on it here.

This is the method we will use to resolve to the target note. Let's call it "surrounding notes." For example, let's say you pick C as the note you want your E Dorian melodic line to resolve to.

To what end? The mode he wants is E Phrygian. C is the exact wrong target note, it will first of all confound C major with the ACTUAL MODE DESIRED. The rest of that stuff should just be ignored if this is going to be your approach. It's just confusing the issue. Nothing personal, but this is clearly outside of your particular expertise and I have to caution people here, this is not anything to follow. Here are you and Mike showing off your particular knowledge rather than providing anything useful pertinent to the topic. As it appears to me, you aren't even interested in modal playing. I wish you'd cut it out. I'm not interested in arguing with you but providing useful ideas to the people.

As relates to the tonic, both of these modes have E. The differences in the modes should concern how the modes surround the tonic, and since both have the note B a Perfect fifth away, that note.

Dorian on E uses F# to E, such as in a phrase, G F# E. Phrygian on E will go G F natural E. There is no need to think of this as though a modulatory practice. The E is solid. The B is solid as well in both modes ON E. You can FREELY change from one mode to the other.

This preparation by the note C occludes thinking here. In PHRYGIAN ON E, the C is not a solid note. It should not dominate the thinking in any way, if you take it as a target, your target using the notes that correspond with phrygian your target in fact is C MAJOR. That loses the Phrygian idea at once.

In PHRYGIAN ON E, C likes to go to that solid B, like the F likes the solid E. In DORIAN ON E, you have something else.
In both, you have G to E; D to E; D to B; A to B.
If the desired result is a smooth move from one to the other the thing to be attentive to are the similarities, not pivots from differences between them. I would pretty much guarantee following that kind of thinking is going to be not-modal, but a confusing result. ONCE MORE: C is not to be a target for PHRYGIAN ON E; just as D is not to be a target for DORIAN ON E. You risk getting C major to D major. That is the IONIAN MODE. It has A DIFFERENT CHARACTER than the two modes desired. We now have four modes potentially, confusing the matter. And for people entrained to tonal function, a further obstacle to the ear.

D C# B, D C B;
G F# E, G F E;
enjoy the character of each, compare them: F# D E; D F E.

There IS NO MODULATION! The tonic is E! You can freely mix them if you want to, improvise, play around with them and enjoy them, forget about some idea they are derived from major. That's just a coincidence. It might be good to know they use the same notes, but THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. They have a character all their own, modes. I think the OP understands this innately. A lot of information such as derived from other practices is not helpful but can occlude the mind to the real possibilities inherent in them.

[jancivil]

Ask yourself the following question: "What notes from E Dorian surround C?" The answer is B and C#. So, to resolve your melodic line and end up in E Phrygian, the last 3 notes will be either C# B C or B C# C. Of course, your rhythmic phrasing must be strong or it may not sound as good as you probably want it to.

Looks like it, but it's an awesome tip.

It isn't. The question to ask is 'what notes surround E' as that is your tonic note, the common ground. "Resolve your melodic line" to the important note, E.

[seacouch]

Good grief; the stench of know-it-all-pissing-contest is overwhelming in here. Guys - try reading the question. "How do modes work?" and "How does modal playing work?" are 2 entirely different questions.

[istyle]

If you find remembering new set of notes relation is confusing ,you may try this approach of mine
I remember only major,minor,then for modes they go like this for scale C

Ionian= 1st major scale=tonic noteC
Dorian=2nd of C=noteD
Phrygian=3rd=E
Lydian=4th=F
Mixolydian=5th=G
Aolian=6th=A
Locrian=7th=B

For D dorian the notes are the same as C majorscale only that tone is D
( try play both D minor and dorian ,Dminor scale has Bb,D dorian has B natural )

For E phrygian the notes are the same as C majorscale only that tone is E
( ...E minor has F#,e phrygian has F natural )
For F lydian the notes are the same as C majorscale only that tone is F
( F major has Bb,Flydian has Bnatural )
For G mixolydian the notes are the same as C majorscale only that tone is G
( G major has F#,G mixo has F natural )
...
You see this way i can remember only 1st major scales then i just count relationship,like
C lydian,lydian is 4th order so the scale for C lydian is from note G ( C is 4th note of G major scale )
Then i just play G major scale but emphasizing on C note as tonic and note F# that is not in C major scale for C lydian feel.
The chord progression thinking is the same,on the above example chords are C maj Dmaj Gmaj,try emphasizing note F#,it depicts lydian feel.

Understanding modes takes time and practise,good luck