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rbarata · Post by **rbarata** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:38 pm

Hello my friends

Is there someone here familiar with secondary chords?

cryophonik · Post by **cryophonik** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:06 pm

Yes, there are many people here who are familiar with secondary chords. What are your questions?

rbarata · Post by **rbarata** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:17 pm

Great!

I have a simple progression I iim V iim V I and I want to add two secondary chords to approach the V. One of them will be the secondary dominant (V/V) and I really don't konw which one is applicable to be used before the V/V.

cryophonik · Post by **cryophonik** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:39 pm

One approach is just turn your iimin chord into a major (and optionally add a 7th to increase tension) to make it a V/V (or V7/V). For example:

I | iimin V7/V | V | iimin V7/V | V | I

In the key of C, that would be:

C | Dmin D7 | G | Dmin D7 | G | C

jopy · Post by **jopy** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:53 pm

Alternatively, you can also do a full ii-V-I like progression up to the V chord.

In C this would be:
Cmaj7 Am7 | D7 G7
I ii/5 V/V V

This is sort of like the Imaj7-iv7-II7-V7 that is used a lot in jazz.

wrench45us · Post by **wrench45us** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:03 pm

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/arc ... -8383.html

here's a link I found when I searched for back cycling -- sometimes called back filling

basically approaching one set of ii V with related ii V further up the cycle of 5ths
once you play it, you'll know you've heard this before

rbarata · Post by **rbarata** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:21 pm

One approach is just turn your iimin chord into a major (and optionally add a 7th to increase tension) to make it a V/V (or V7/V). For example:

I | iimin V7/V | V | iimin V7/V | V | I

In the key of C, that would be:

C | Dmin D7 | G | Dmin D7 | G | C

Ok, you are talking about the secondary dominant. But as I said, I want to add two secondary chords in between the iim and the V of the original progression. The secondary dominant we already know which one it is but...what about the missing chord?

Code: Select all

Alternatively, you can also do a full ii-V-I like progression up to the V chord. 

In C this would be: 
Cmaj7 Am7 | D7 G7 
I ii/5 V/V V

What the difference between ii/5 and V/V? I mean...in one chord you've used a 5 and in the oter a V. Is it a typo or that means a difference?

Backcycling? Is it the application of secondary chors? That's how it is called?

jopy · Post by **jopy** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:27 pm

rbarata wrote:What the difference between ii/5 and V/V? I mean...in one chord you've used a 5 and in the oter a V. Is it a typo or that means a difference?

sorry, that was indeed a typo. it should be ii/V and V/V.

rbarata · Post by **rbarata** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:31 pm

sorry, that was indeed a typo. it should be ii/V and V/V.

Ok, no problem.

And what name would you give to that ii/V? A secondary supertonic?
In practice, it's the ii chord "constructed from the supertonic of the V major scale (the V from the original progression)?

jopy · Post by **jopy** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:35 pm

i'm sorry, my background is jazz and i don't recall having a special name for that chord. i suppose it is a secondary supertonic, but i don't know if that's the conventional name for it.

rbarata · Post by **rbarata** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:39 pm

i'm sorry, my background is jazz and i don't recall having a special name for that chord. i suppose it is a secondary supertonic, but i don't know if that's the conventional name for it.

That's a name that is not easy to find in google. You ha e it in wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_supertonic_chord), but I'm not sure if they mean the same thing. The language is confusing.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:29 pm

In a major key, calling vi a 'secondary supertonic' seems to me like somebody that enjoys naming stuff got busy with that activity.

C^7 Am7 D7 G7 = I7 vi7 ii7 V7 I, only ii was made into a stronger/more 'dominant' push to V, V/V.

in jazz practice, you look forward to a (often temporary) goal and make alterations to forward the drive to that place. It may be that in naming you'll track back accordingly and that may be useful. I wouldn't worry a lot about academic terminology, isn't really going to wind up pulling that horse for you.

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:37 pm

rbarata wrote:I have a simple progression I iim V iim V I and I want to add two secondary chords to approach the V. One of them will be the secondary dominant (V/V) and I really don't konw which one is applicable to be used before the V/V.

Try vii7/V. In other words, a diminished seventh (built on the leading note) borrowed from the dominant minor.

Eg. In C minor, the chord is vii7 in G minor, which is F#, A, C, Eb.
This resolves to Vb/V, so Vb in G minor, which is F#, A, C, D
Then resolves to V, G minor: G, B, D, F
Finally resolving to i, C minor: C. Eb, G.

Put a Tierce de Picardie in there if you want and finish on C major instead: C, E, G.

Notice there is only one note difference between the first two chords. If the part writing is good, this may end up sounding more like a suspension than an actual change-of-chord.

Bach did this in at least one of his chorales.

Secondary chords