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neueliteratur · Post by **neueliteratur** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:29 pm

Hi forum,

People say making walking bass lines is easy but everytime I encounter movements of 2nd and 3rd (which means also 7th and 6th.. which means anything other than the classic down-a-fifth/up-a-forth movement..) I feel fear.

What is the most common way of treating this kind of passage?

To make the discussion easier, let's take All The Things You Are:

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:07 pm

How do your solutions sound to you? Musical and logical?

I ask because the way you've framed up the question suggests that you've got intellectual theory approaches driving the decision making. In my opinion, theory should inform hearing but hearing should drive music.

neueliteratur · Post by **neueliteratur** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:00 pm

Ogg Vorbis wrote:How do your solutions sound to you? Musical and logical?

I ask because the way you've framed up the question suggests that you've got intellectual theory approaches driving the decision making. In my opinion, theory should inform hearing but hearing should drive music.

Hey, thanks for your comment.

The way teachers use that "listen to it and see for yourself instead of calculating with the theory" phrase has actually made me lose my confidence in doing that.

It's like... when a teacher says that to me, the apparent free choice secretly contains a much stronger pressure to follow the convention: not only you have to find the "right answer", but the right answer must be evident to you if you're human.

When a harmony teacher played a V - I and then a IV - I and asked me which one sounded more conclusive, I said the second one. For me, it was. It's when he went "do you really think so??" with a smile, that I did the following acting: "oh, wait, no, actually the first one sounds more conclusive!". et cetera...

But this whining isn't directed to you Ogg Vorbis

(all the more because you said "musical and logical"), I'm just using your comment as an excuse to bring this subject up in the forum so I can see what others think.

Bobbotov · Post by **Bobbotov** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:21 pm

Carl Jung told his aspiring psychoanalyst students to learn everything they could about psychology and then when they had a session with a patient, to forget it. The reason being is that dogmatic approaches to anything can limit discovery for yourself.

Computers can be programmed to adhere to all of the theories of music and follow them to the letter. Result more often than not is boring but correct. I always admired competent self taught musicians as they approached music from their heart and not their head as they knew no other way.

I think music creation is all about lateral thinking and not rigid rules. Treat theory as guidelines not as absolutes. Do what you feel not what you know. Will it all be good? Not necessarily. But neither is the computer music I just mentioned. Chances are through feeling the music you will discover a lot more about yourself, your style and what comes natural than any dogmatic, rigid rules.

What I would suggest for your walking bass experiment is to play every conceivable variation you can think of and go with what "feels" right to your ear. Not only that, make some variations to the chords in the piece and see what ideas it generates. It is called "playing" you know. Well, play a little.

When Duke Ellington was asked what kind of music he personally liked he said, "good." He didn't say music that adhered strictly to the theories of music as if that were some kind of litmus test. I think to him "bad" music was probably that which had no heart and soul.

egbert · Post by **egbert** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:21 pm

Don't be afraid to break out of strict 4 beat walking lines. Throwing some swing quavers and triplets in helps drive the rhythmic feel and adds interest. Your E to C example could use any number of variations of ascending or descending arpeggios(like the line you used in the later example) delivering you to a B natural leading note for the C chord. Sticking with 4 on the floor you can use scale lines (eg 1235 1345 on E major).

Another device used often is quaver octaves (1 8 or 8 1) or triplets (158 or 851 or - using the third instead of the root - you can descend 853). For eg in your E/C change you could use E up to next E on the first beat and then back down to B in between those Es, then down to G# on the third beat and back up to the B leading note for beat 4.

If you are going to go with a 4 note chromatic descent like the one you suggest you could interpose ghosted notes on all the off quavers to give it more interest and rhythmic drive.

A good book on putting together lines for any bass instrument is Mike Richmond's Modern Walking Bass Techniques.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:44 am

halfstep wrote: Can this work?? | E D# D Db | C ...

Movement of 3rd:

check out bar 27 ~ 29 (Cm7 Bdim Bbm7)

My idea is: | C Eb G Bb | B Ab F D | Bb ...

I will tell you what I found, which is driven by how the melody works over those changes [I have no indication what the drummer is doing/the tempo, so I'm approaching it as a ballad}:

C D Eb Bb - under that constant Eb at the top, the passing D is poignant and the leap up to Bb gets the line to move & sets up the next move -
Bb down to Ab; that Ab under that G at top, gives you that twinge of emotion;
now the combo of your root, the B below, that Ab and the horn or singer at the top says something.
so I grab that B - holding the Ab - Ab down to G holding the B, and descend F to D of the Bb^7.

Check that sucker out!

this is PART WRITING, in the context OF THE TUNE. With just someone carrying the tune and that bass part we have a satisfying musical event.

Listen to masters and find out what they did, and cop it until you hear the sense of it. AND: Study with somebody. EG: Pay me for private lessons, I'll make it worth your while and it doesn't have to be that dear.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:59 am

from there, supporting the melody, I went to [D] Bb D F G A F D > Db, the 7th of that Eb7.

walking bass should be as melodic as possible, be good part-writing, counterpoint to the tune.

to give you 'information', food for your ear so as to drive your decisions is really difficult to do scattershot per this or that question without a coherent line of attack such as you get with a tutor/lessons. You aren't getting very far with it. You are sincere and your questions are alright, but you aren't going to get but so far with this approach.

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:25 am

halfstep I did an article about this very piece and building walking basslines not to far back.

I don't know where you got that transcription. But It's not the same as the transcription I've been using for the last 30 years.

http://www.tappermike.com/?q=node/4

When you walk a bassline you can.
Outline chord shapes
Walk using scale tones.
Add in chromatic lines (ala Charlie Parker)
The one thing you have to do is make sure the root lands on one.

Also there is no steadfast rule that says an entire piece must walk.

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:54 pm

[quote="halfstep"

When a harmony teacher played a V - I and then a IV - I and asked me which one sounded more conclusive, I said the second one. For me, it was. It's when he went "do you really think so??" with a smile, that I did the following acting: "oh, wait, no, actually the first one sounds more conclusive!". et cetera...

[/quote]

This is an area I can sympathize with you. If someone played two harmonies as you've described as above I might answer the way you originally did. A two harmony cadence may not give me enough context to even come up with an answer.

To really get whether something sounds "right" is a really interesting process. Even if you study great bass players like Scott LaFaro and Ray Brown, they will often have two rather different approaches to bass playing in this tune.

If you had recordings of these two players, you could transcribe their playing and look for kinds of patterns or approaches that they are doing. Then you might find yourself "agreeing" with one player's approach a little more than the other.

Personally, I get bored with straight crotchets outlining the triads with scalar interpolations. I like a good musical "dialogue" like Scott Lafaro provides many times. Check out how Scott does this dialoguing in "Autumn Leaves" with an obscure and largely forgotten pianist named Bob Ubanks or Steve Evans or something...

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:23 pm

Bob Eubanks of the Newlywed Game?

I'd liked to seen her reply to 'straight crotchets'...

right, though on V - I vs IV - I out of context. That's just silly, they are both the same distance from I.

Ogg Vorbis · Post by **Ogg Vorbis** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:57 pm

jancivil wrote:
I'd liked to seen her reply to 'straight crotchets'...

Good lord...urban...

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:47 pm

OV you had to bring Bill Evans into the mix. I've always liked him and it seems the last few days I've been obsessed with his playing style.

What's funny about playing thru walking basslines for the above mentioned piece. I had to clamp myself down after the fourth try because I was playing the basslines rubato and falling away from the path by inserting fill licks. Which is fine and fun for bass if...you are only playing bass. But the point of the exercise for me was to play a walking bassline on the left and melody on the right. My right hand would fall apart trying to play the melody because I was so absorbed with the left.

jsaras · Post by **jsaras** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:15 am

In my opinion, the bass player carries much of the responsibility for outlining the harmony...and I appreciate it when it's clear and easy to follow. With that in mind, what's wrong with 1-5-8? That would work especially well going from E major to C: E-B-E-B(which leads by 1/2 step to "C").

psenior · Post by **psenior** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:50 am

Carol Kaye includes this tune in one of her lessons she sells, called Standards 2, on her website. It's very reasonably priced and you will get great insight as to how a living legend methodically constructs jazz bass lines. And, she is always available on her forum to answer any questions you might have directly.

wrench45us · Post by **wrench45us** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:16 pm

'All the Things You Are' is also included in 'Walking Jazz Lines for Bass' Jay Hungerford
This book is online at google books and may have that page in the 'preview', I'm not sure as the preview pages seem to change every few days -- though that seems implausible

I believe I also saw it in a bass book by a noted bassist at www.jazzbooks.com ,but now I can't find it.

I have recently decided to takeup the study and practice of walking bass lines, particularly with jazz standards. (No, seriously I bought a bass and am practicing every evening.)
I'll have the basis if an opinion/ answer in about 6-9 months if I stay on schedule.

Walking bass -- movements of 2nd and 3rd