Chords from non-traditonal scales?

[como baila]

'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing' ... and I must be in great peril as mine is extremely limited.

I have a basic understanding of triad, 4-note and extended chord structure in the common scales. Let me emphasize, 'basic.'

OK, my questions. A lot of programs have exotic scales beyond your basic Major, Minors, 7ths and Pentatonics.

Regardless of the scale, do the principles of chord structure, i.e., using every other note in the scale when constructing a triad or 4-note chord 'more or less' always apply?

And are there any differences in naming chords created created from exotic scales?

These questions are precipitated by investigating RapidComposer, which permits selection of many different scales and then creating a chord progression to render musical phrases in a sequencer line controlled by the selected chord for that part of the sequence. I understand how to work out my arrangements/ chord progressions under normal circumstances ... but I wonder how the provided palette of chord types relates to any chosen underlying exotic scale.

Yes, I have ears ... but it is nice to understand principles too, when they are available.

Como

[psenior]

Regardless of the scale, do the principles of chord structure, i.e., using every other note in the scale when constructing a triad or 4-note chord 'more or less' always apply?

Yes.

And are there any differences in naming chords created created from exotic scales?

You will find a mix of common chords, uncommon chords and chords that don't really have a name. In some instances, a composer will write the name of the scale after the name of the chord symbol in order to not have to write out the weird, obfuscatory chord symbol they'd have to use if they were being technically correct.

For example, C7alt means play a C7 chord with notes from the C altered scale, which is the 7th mode of harmonic minor. If the composer wanted to be 100% technically correct, they could write the chord symbol as C7b9#5, but to read and play that chord accurately is challenging.

[como baila]

TY psenior! That gives me enough to get started. I guess I'll just set out a chart of the scale I want to try and see how the program renders the chords.

To take one example ... I hope I've got this right ... using B Phrygian, then C Major would be the II, right?

Two related things I wonder about.

What happens to the conventions of Tonic, Dominant, Super Tonic, etc., once there are more than 8 notes in the scale? Would the dominant basically still be the triad with the root furthest from the tonic with as many different scale tones as possible compared to the I chord?

Also, in scales with intervals other than semitones and whole tones, either with successive semitone notes or larger intervals, what happens to the Major/ Minor thing as far as chord naming goes? Out the window?

Como

[Nystul]

You can get yourself into trouble if you try to use every scale the same as you would the major scale. To give an example, one could try to write a blues in C by taking the "blues scale" in C and trying to derive a sequence of chords from it. That's not really going to work. It's not really how the blues operates. Similarly something like traditional Middle Eastern folk music doesn't build harmonies around its scales in the way that Western music does.

[como baila]

I told everybody I was in peril!

So where do you start sourcing information about how Middle Eastern folk music does build harmonies? I've always loved some of that orchestration on Persian and Egyptian music when the strings back up a phrase.

Also ... a little off topic, but how do you sequence with 1/4 tone scales? Are there plugins for standard DAWs that will give 1/4 tone intervals in a midi editor? Or specialized sequencers?

Thanks.

Como

[Nystul]

I'm far from an expert on the music of the Middle East. I think if you listen to a traditional maqam for instance there is no real harmonic movement as such. It is more similar to a modal chant where all of the tension and consonance relates back to the root tonality. Where I would try to "hum the bass" while hearing such a performance, I would end up with always a drone on the same root tone.

I think maybe if one has an understanding of the effects of the melody in that context, then you could begin to Westernize and add more complexity without destroying the original effect. A lot of fascinating music has come from the influence of European harmonies and instruments on the melodies and rhythms of other musical cultures.

As far as sequencing microtonal music, the best case would be to have software instruments that support microtuning. They can support files which tell how much each note of the scale should be raised or lowered. I believe someone made a MIDI plugin to use pitch bend messages to try to simulate this affect on any instrument that supports pitch bend, which might work OK in some cases.

[como baila]

TY Nystul ...

I suppose some one will come along with a sequencer with a variable scale, i.e., options other than the 12 tones, sooner or later.

Speaking of using Western influence, I just heard an NPR segment on some Pakistani group called "Shato," or "Shako," or something similar, who just released their first album. Apparently there was a strong orchestra in Pakistan supporting it's film industry. When the film industry got kicked to the curb some 20 years ago, the orchestra disintegrated with many of the musicians relegated to menial work to eke out a living.

A Pakistani ex-patriot returned and reassembled them ... a la Buena Vista Social Club ... and orchestrated jazz standards with traditional instrumentation. I heard part of Bruebeck's 'Take Five' on the show. Incredible! Bruebeck himself apparently stated that it was by far the most interesting rearrangement of his tune he'd ever heard.

So, I guess it can work both ways.

Como

[cis-didge]

maybe this could be usefull


http://www.xen-arts.com/2011/01/new-rel ... -vsti.html

[jancivil]

I told everybody I was in peril!

So where do you start sourcing information about how Middle Eastern folk music does build harmonies? I've always loved some of that orchestration on Persian and Egyptian music when the strings back up a phrase.

are you sure they build harmonies at all?

[como baila]

maybe this could be usefull


http://www.xen-arts.com/2011/01/new-rel ... -vsti.html

TY ... I'll look into it a little deeper, but first glance doesn't seem to address how you would sequence it ... as the sequencer you used with it would still have only 12 notes, semitones, in an octave in the midi editors.

I guess you could tune the notes in a list editor ... but I'm not that much of a glutton for punishment.

Como

[como baila]

I told everybody I was in peril!

So where do you start sourcing information about how Middle Eastern folk music does build harmonies? I've always loved some of that orchestration on Persian and Egyptian music when the strings back up a phrase.

are you sure they build harmonies at all?

Good point!

Maybe it's just all giant unison?

Actually I think a lot of it's probably more like a drone note with melody lines against it ... sort of like bag pipe, no?

Como

[jlocri]

A lot of middle-eastern classical music uses drone notes, where improvisation or a set melody is performed over a note that's sustained for minutes on end. I think some cultures and traditions may have began to implement a moveable drone, like European music in the very beginnings of the Renaissance, but I'm really not sure. My knowledge stops at a few Maqams and Ajnas.
Traditionally, no harmonies in non-western music, at least none that are purposeful. That being said, a lot of Arabian and Hindustani pop music began to incorporate both western and traditional influence, so you might see some harmonies there. This music is closer to American and European folk than it is to their respective classical music cultures though.

In my honest opinion, trying to find variation in your music via exotic scales is a dead end. In the end you're exchanging one set of limitations with another, without actually solving anything. Take it with a grain of salt, but I believe you may find better results by experimenting and learning about chromaticism. Unlike exotic scales, chromaticism fits well with harmony if done correctly. To me this makes sense, opening up the possibility of all 12 notes rather than finding another pattern of 7 is logical.

[jancivil]

I told everybody I was in peril!

So where do you start sourcing information about how Middle Eastern folk music does build harmonies? I've always loved some of that orchestration on Persian and Egyptian music when the strings back up a phrase.

are you sure they build harmonies at all?

Good point!

Maybe it's just all giant unison?

Actually I think a lot of it's probably more like a drone note with melody lines against it ... sort of like bag pipe, no?

Como

that's right.

I remember when I started finding out about exotic or 'otherwise' sorts of scales. I had been improvising to a drone for a while and I kind of had that context. but a lot of it is useful to apply to more than a drone, this or that *sonority* can have its implications carried further by defining a set of tones that exploits it most effectively.

looking for chords for these scales that aren't major/minor derived is going to be a kind of dead end, ie., finding out what triads go with i, ii, iii. It isn't going to add anything and will tend to hinder movement. the shapes of the arabic, or persian scales has nothing whatsoever to do with chords, and happen in intonations that make chords too problematic to be at all useful anyway. indian raga finds accord in very particular ways, the note you're playing to the tonic and/or fifth in the drone.

that isn't to say don't experiment stacking things based on rows, scales that are novel to you, just as source material. I would say to start with more of a blank slate than to try and relate it to triadic construction in the major/minor paradigm.

building vertical structures in music by something other than thirds isn't at all new. look at fourths, just for starters... or just experiment...

[psenior]

I came across an Arabic Jazz blog website which might interest you. Maybe you are trying to go in the direction of some of the artists featured there.

http://arabicjazz.blogspot.com/

[Lander.vast]

For example, C7alt means play a C7 chord with notes from the C altered scale, which is the 7th mode of harmonic minor. If the composer wanted to be 100% technically correct, they could write the chord symbol as C7b9#5, but to read and play that chord accurately is challenging.

Actually the 7 mode of minor harmonic isn't the altered or super locrian, that's the 7 mode from minor melodic, the 7 mode from minor harmonic is a super locrian double flat 7 working over a diminished chord so you'd have a Co7 and not a C7b9#5, plus normaly if you see the super locrian as a dominant chord instead of a half diminished one you'll have the scale like so - 1 b2 #2 3 #4 b6 b7, this would mean C7b9,b13.