KVR Audio

stk · Post by **stk** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:47 am

If you look thru the archives you'll find this thread comes along regularly.
Truth is: KVRians love a good group bashing, simple as that.
Attempting to "defend" the subject of said bashing is futile, only gives them a taste of blood.

It's all about "perceived value", kids, just like everythign else you've bought yourself. Simple as that.

Acid Mitch · Post by **Acid Mitch** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:03 am

ghettosynth wrote: The question here is what makes SAW worth 2k? .

The workflow is unlike anything else I've tried. It feels more like wroking on a tape machine than a DAW. If that is the workflow you like/want you wont find it in any other software. (at least , not any software I have tried anyway)

Mattox · Post by **Mattox** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:40 am

The point is that you pay "crazy amount" for MSDN because you can't pay less and get MSDN and there's nothing else that is MSDN. Another example from music is Props Recycle. You may not think that it's worth $200+ but if you want/need to write stereo REX files, then you have no other choice. That reason, however, is trivial to articulate. The question here is what makes SAW worth 2k? Unlike recycle, and MSDN, we can't seem to put a finger on a specific feature or set of features that makes it makes it compelling independent of price.

It probably is not a product you could go download the demo of and fully understand its value/power. Maybe you need to have someone who uses it show you and recommend?

I tried the demo for shits and giggles and I had no idea what was going on, unistalled it right away.

It was blazingly fast to start-up tho, X1 is sllllloooowww

Dean Aka Nekro · Post by **Dean Aka Nekro** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:59 pm

Digidesign or AV(O)ID now - I think that I got a rick rolled on quite a few things over the years from my own point of view. I have not and will not upgrade to 9 for until i have no choice. I have the last M-Powered v7.x version on my main DAW machine, last version of LE v8.x on this laptop for portable stuff. I am staring at an MBOX II right now with a claw hammer just below in a toolbox...Tempting and the M-Audio ProjectMixIO i use with the M-Powered setup is alright but there is alot better (Like the ProFire2626 but that has no control surface and was released after i went for the PMixIO anyhow). Now i could upgrade to v9 and use any interface i so wished pretty much. The PDC is not an issue but would be a nice bonus. Still its history and i commited plus i can work faster with PT than anything else. It will happen someday and then i can junk those hardware pieces for personal preference items. Although i must say that M-Audio have always been solid driver wise and the control panel thing for the PMixIO is good also

There is more

but yeah it happens and i _might_have an old version of auto-tune crap on one of my iLoks when Celemony came along and made it even more useless

Oh and BTW: I still use 16-Bit/44.1K with them 20,000 mics for more crunch via br00tal amounts of clip. Then render to 12-Bit sans dither for more in-fidelity

skipkent · Post by **skipkent** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:35 pm

"Why is it so expensive?" Is one possible question.

"Why are other DAW's so cheap?" Is another.

Why are other DAW's that are feature-rich with things like audio quantize, pitch correction, lot's of bundled extras and so on, so cheap?

To my thinking, the answer is "mass market". In short, if Cubase or Ableton Live were available only for say, $1200, they would still sell, but they would sell less. They actually make more money by selling more copies at a lower price.

Bob Lentini's "boutique" model is happy selling far less product to a vastly smaller audience at a higher price. Mass market pricing to a boutique audience doesn't make for a very profitable venture.

"Yeah, but WHY do they pay that price?"

There's probably no pat answer for this that would satisfy anyone. If the questioner is honest about wanting to understand, then he or she needs to show due diligence and visit the SAW forums, get at least a passing familiarity with the workings of the program and so on. If you really want to know something, then research it yourself. If you just want the satisfaction of posing a rhetorical question that you've already decided cannot be answered sufficiently, then you have to consider the possibility that you're just being rude for the sake of looking smart in the eyes of other rude people.

"Yeah, but what about REAPER?"

REAPER (as I understand it, could be wrong) is labor-of-love by a self-made millionaire. A VERY unusual case which breaks all previous molds, so I don't think a comparison to that pricing model is a valid critique. Justin appears to be looking to shake up (if not dominate outright) the market place just for the fun of it. I admire him and his efforts (and REAPER) tremendously, so please don't take this as a slight against REAPER. I don't use it much, but my license is paid in full.

LawrenceF · Post by **LawrenceF** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:57 pm

stk wrote:If you look thru the archives you'll find this thread comes along regularly.
Truth is: KVRians love a good group bashing, simple as that.
Attempting to "defend" the subject of said bashing is futile, only gives them a taste of blood.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:23 pm

skipkent wrote:"Why is it so expensive?" Is one possible question.

"Why are other DAW's so cheap?" Is another.

Why are other DAW's that are feature-rich with things like audio quantize, pitch correction, lot's of bundled extras and so on, so cheap?

To my thinking, the answer is "mass market". In short, if Cubase or Ableton Live were available only for say, $1200, they would still sell, but they would sell less. They actually make more money by selling more copies at a lower price.

Bob Lentini's "boutique" model is happy selling far less product to a vastly smaller audience at a higher price. Mass market pricing to a boutique audience doesn't make for a very profitable venture.

"Yeah, but WHY do they pay that price?"

There's probably no pat answer for this that would satisfy anyone. If the questioner is honest about wanting to understand, then he or she needs to show due diligence and visit the SAW forums, get at least a passing familiarity with the workings of the program and so on. If you really want to know something, then research it yourself. If you just want the satisfaction of posing a rhetorical question that you've already decided cannot be answered sufficiently, then you have to consider the possibility that you're just being rude for the sake of looking smart in the eyes of other rude people.

"Yeah, but what about REAPER?"

REAPER (as I understand it, could be wrong) is labor-of-love by a self-made millionaire. A VERY unusual case which breaks all previous molds, so I don't think a comparison to that pricing model is a valid critique. Justin appears to be looking to shake up (if not dominate outright) the market place just for the fun of it. I admire him and his efforts (and REAPER) tremendously, so please don't take this as a slight against REAPER. I don't use it much, but my license is paid in full.

well I want to know because I'm curious and I have no intention of offending anyone or putting down SAW...I have repeated that often and stuck to it. I am not being rude to anyone, I see no rules written anywhere that states I cannot be curious without actually contemplating purchasing it. So I have no idea what you're trying to say. I mean I'm not going to spend a lot of time at their forum trying to get a feel for it...I would demo it first. But I did take the time to go through the brochure which has quite a bit of info on it, so I ahve questions and as I see it once again I have the right to ask questions respectfully which I have.

I reserve the right to change my mind and be wrong, I was always told there was no stupid question and if I am missing something I want to know becasue I do not know what the future holds. There was a time digital wouldn't even be spoken in connection with my gear and now look at where I am.

So I'm really sorry my question bothers you so much but that does not change the fact that I would like to know. I seek knowledge, nothing more and nothing less...I've investigated a lot of gear that I never bought and have found things by mistake that I never knew existed (like one particular model of guitar I bought from a frined here). I will never know if I dont ask, it has nothing to do with being rude...I like talking and learning about gear.

Now a thought on some of what others have said about it, it's been said that it loads very quickly which I can see be a benefit (I break things down between features and benfits, that's the exsalesman in me) to many. However I am curious if the same holds true if you are using the midi add on with some some vsti samplers running. I say this because for me with Samp I find it launches very quickly on a blank project and any with just audio (this is why I freeze even though I do not need to, Samps freeze is a bounce in place and very fast).

With most instruments it loads pretty much just as fast, but put YT Indy 3.0 and Jamstix 3 in there and it's about a minute and a half, maybe even two minutes.

I am also still curious (and if I missed it I apologize)if it has autopunch, about comping (if it had more tracks that would not be an issue) and things it does other hosts do. You see there is some appeal there for me because of the notion it's more like a hardware tape or HD recorder. In threads from the past I am quite sure I have just read and not joined in the conversation, but I got curious this time...so sue me

FWIW Reaper is sort of this way for me too, scan reaper threads and see how many post from me there are. I read them, but I dont comment...but most of all I have never ruled it out either because I may not be as satisfied tomorrow with what I have as I am today

edit: btw I never asked why they paid that price, that is not the question nor my place to question and it's moot anyhow because this has free updates so once you buy it you're not spending more

dgkenney · Post by **dgkenney** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:32 pm

Personally. I enjoy the periodic bashing of SAW here at kvr.

It takes the heat off the normal bashing of PT.

In any event, I eagerly await the screencast that will show how SAW's editing is more elegant and efficient than PT and/or Cubase. As Hink implied, I am always up for learning something new - as long as it isn't about Boscoe's exploits.

Dan

LawrenceF · Post by **LawrenceF** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:50 pm

dgkenney wrote:I am always up for learning something new - as long as it isn't about Boscoe's exploits.
Dan

Boscoe uses Garageband... nothing comes close.

LawrenceF · Post by **LawrenceF** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:01 pm

Hink wrote:I am also still curious (and if I missed it I apologize)if it has autopunch,

Let me try to be more helpful.

http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/sho ... .php?t=730

about comping

Looks like it uses track layers for that...

http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/sho ... ht=comping

(if it had more tracks that would not be an issue) and things it does other hosts do.

The major features (as they see it I guess) are described in the PDF, video support, control surface support and other stuff. I don't think it has elastic audio and beat detective and vari audio and session view and all that stuff.

http://www.sawstudio.com/downloads/prod ... studio.pdf

LawrenceF · Post by **LawrenceF** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:13 pm

@Hink...

Here's an overview of track layers. It actually seems to work a lot like Studio One there... or vice versa I suppose with SAW being older.

http://www.sawstudio.com/Tutorials/SAWS ... ayers.html

Overview of varispeed / pitch...

http://www.sawstudio.com/Tutorials/SAWS ... Pitch.html

Some of the basic editing techniques...

http://www.sawstudio.com/Tutorials/SAWS ... iques.html

"Automation Gallery" which actually looks pretty cool..

http://www.sawstudio.com/Tutorials/SAWS ... rview.html

Doesn't appear like SAW Studio users really make YouTube vids showing how to do stuff like with most other daws though.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:16 pm

LawrenceF wrote:
Hink wrote:I am also still curious (and if I missed it I apologize)if it has autopunch,
Let me try to be more helpful.

http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/sho ... .php?t=730

about comping
Looks like it uses track layers for that...

http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/sho ... ht=comping

(if it had more tracks that would not be an issue) and things it does other hosts do.
The major features (as they see it I guess) are described in the PDF, video support, control surface support and other stuff. I don't think it has elastic audio and beat detective and vari audio and session view and all that stuff.

http://www.sawstudio.com/downloads/prod ... studio.pdf

thanx for the info on the autopunch, I realize it has the layer tracks, my question is does it have something similar to a take composer or an arranger for comping those tracks. Though tbh 8 layer tracks are not enough imo, but I really do not do much comping but I do record a zillion takes waiting for just the perfect one (actually typically much more than one good take, I have a sheet with 1-100 numbered on it, I circle the ones I like for and if I circle it multiple times that means I really liked it). I never find the perfect one but after selecting some 'finalists' I go to autopunch (which is still even more takes but shorter takes) and samp has multipoint autopunch so I can clean up the mistakes in one take some times (though it might be the 50th take).

FWIW this is not the best workflow (not even good tbh) because I play much more than arrange and then sometimes instead of working with what I have I just record more because I love playing and am too lazy to listen to a lot of takes

I did look through the brochure as well

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:27 pm

SAW gets bashed on almost all forums for a very good reason. It is incredibly outdated, ugly, crap and useless. A total waste of a good 2k$. Give 1940$ to charity and buy Reaper instead.

Yeah, that's my opinion? Got a problem with it?

LawrenceF · Post by **LawrenceF** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:33 pm

Hink wrote:my question is does it have something similar to a take composer or an arranger for comping those tracks.

My guess is that it doesn't. Usually if stuff like that exists it's featured or shown on the product page. Anyway, the 8 layers do seem to be a low number but I think all that stuff is dedicated (to resources) in the assembly code or something which is part of the stability.

Or so users say. I don't know the technical ins and outs of all that but here's a professional SAW user from another Pro Audio forum...

The full version is capable of 120 tracks (up from the previous 72) which you can think of as hard wired and individually memory buffered as opposed to create as you need them in other DAW's. It's my favorite DAW among a bunch I have licenses for. It's arguably the best DAW for mission critical work because of stability (written in assembly language). Support is second to none.

It probably wouldn't be a good idea for him to say that on KVR though.

keyman_sam · Post by **keyman_sam** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:41 am

Music made in SAW cuts through the mix! Get it??

SAW Studio 5 released...