80's Saw Sound

[Ingonator]

I just had a listen to the MP3 (not the video as i could not access it) of "Out of Touch". That Brass sounds is really great, it really seems to involve a Jupiter 8 (i had one in 2004 for a short time...). Anyway Hall & Oates were known to use the Prophet 5 very much.
This still sounds like detuned Sawtooths to me but i guess there could be something like a Chorus involved.
I'll try to reproduce that sound with Xils Synthix and it's Chorus. I already made a few Brass sounds with that so it should not take too long...

Anyway, tempted by the gauntlet thrown by PAK, here is my attempt. However, what you will hear first is a short snippet of the original in stereo, since it makes all the difference. Hopefully I'm not 'Out Of Touch' by including a bit of the original in the file

Out Of Touch Brass

I think I have too much detune going on there. Need another pint to retune.

I guess that Himalayas attempt nails it quite good, same for PAK. Nice work!! I'll have a try myself soon with Xils Synthix as i sold Jupiter 8V some weeks ago...


Ingo

[PAK]

I noticed, when I went to hunt for a bit of the original tracks audio, that there seem to be several audio sources used for different versions of this track. EG The original extended version isn't just longer, the tone of the synth actually changes - like it was taken from a better quality source. So it's a bit of a moving target unless the original album version is used

I didn't think to link the mp3 to Dropbox (But Brok apparently did ). So now I've done that, and I updated it a bit based on the higher quality track version Himalaya posted. This is my final attempt. It's still off by a bit. The attack is actually the hardest part to get right, because the software just doesn't want to be punchy as easily and I'm not sure how much throwing compression or a transient designer at it would fix things. So I'm giving up for now. I like the simple synth sounds used, but I'm not actually a huge fan of the song btw

This one alternates between the original and my JP8 V2 attempt. Since I edited Himalaya's audio to get the original track, I left Himalaya's version in there as the last 8 seconds.

Out of Touch - Jupiter 8V2

[Ingonator]

Hi,

here is my first attempt to recreate the Brass from "Out of Touch". To keep the first attempt easy I have used Xils Lab Synthix with two detuned Sawtooths and a small amount of it's internal Chorus.

link. https://rapidshare.com/files/3770578953 ... Test_1.mp3

I noticed, when I went to hunt for a bit of the original tracks audio, that there seem to be several audio sources used for different versions of this track. EG The original extended version isn't just longer, the tone of the synth actually changes - like it was taken from a better quality source. So it's a bit of a moving target unless the original album version is used

I have used the original song (remastered version) for comparison which i got from iTunes some time ago.

Out of Touch - Jupiter 8V2

Sounds like the first layer is OK but the second doesn't seem to really fit. There seem to be too much low frequencies on that second layer.


Ingo

[Mutant]

This one is pretty good quality.

[PAK]

Sounds like the first layer is OK but the second doesn't seem to really fit. There seem to be too much low frequencies on that second layer.

Here it is minus the 2 bass notes.
Out Of Bass

It could do with the attack on one of the layers being made more of a punchy brass sound, but altering the attack caused it to go further off. So I'd need to layer a second instance, or probably call in a second synth that allowed the ADSR envelope to be shaped with a bit more flexibility. But not prepared to spend the time on that It's quite difficult to copy that punchy response with software though, without making it too abrupt (and less like a brass sound) or too slow (and lacking some punch).

[Ingonator]

Sounds like the first layer is OK but the second doesn't seem to really fit. There seem to be too much low frequencies on that second layer.

Here it is minus the 2 bass notes.
Out Of Bass

It could do with the attack on one of the layers being made more of a punchy brass sound, but altering the attack caused it to go further off. So I'd need to layer a second instance, or probably call in a second synth that allowed the ADSR envelope to be shaped with a bit more flexibility. But not prepared to spend the time on that It's quite difficult to copy that punchy response with software though, without making it too abrupt (and less like a brass sound) or too slow (and lacking some punch).

Hi,

both examples are sounding good, no matter if it's 100% close to the original sound but it's for sure close enough.
I also like playing Brass sound with both hands BTW...

My first example (see above) was only with 2 Sawtooths but i'll try to add more OSCs too. With the layer system of Synthix this is not a big problem. Just the polyphony will be reduced but with 2 layers you still got 8 voices.

Anyway i really like that Brass sound which i got at my first attempt. Sounds really different to the other Brass sounds i made with Synthix.


Ingo

[Ingonator]

Hi everyone,

i just remembered that Hall & Oates seemed to use the Prophet 5 quite a lot. Then i thought about that the Prophet could use all it's waveforms in the two oscillators at once which leads to a maximum of 5 possible waveforms playing a t once. Based on this the sound in "Out of Touch" could finally be just ONE synth, a Prophet 5 to be exactly.

1.) Based on this i tried to do the patch in Arturia Prophet V2 (whch i currently try to sell at the Market place BTW...). That patch uses a Saw and Pulse in OSC1 and a Saw and PWM for OSC2 and OSC2 is detuned.

Here is the demo:
https://rapidshare.com/files/2002236096 ... Test_1.mp3


2.) I tried to do the same sound in Synthix with the same features used. Syntix (like the Synthex) could use all it's waveforms at once like in the Prophet so this includes Saw and Pulse for OSC1 and Saw + PWM for OSC2.

demo:
https://rapidshare.com/files/3998666112 ... Test_2.mp3


3.) As i just got the upgrade to Cakewalk Z3TA+ 2.0 i also tried to do the patch there. It sounds slightly different but still nice IMO:

https://rapidshare.com/files/4044357890 ... Test_1.mp3


All 3 demos are a single instance of the synth without external FXs added.

If someone could give specific hints for improving those sounds any suggestions are welcome.


Once i'm sure that the patches are good enough i'll post a free version of the Prophet V2 and the Z3TA+ 2 version here at KVR.
I'll keep the Synthix patch for myself because i'm working on a bank for it currently.


PS:
For those interested in purchasing Arturis Prophet V:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=324349


Have fun,
Ingo

[himalaya]

Hi everyone,

i just remembered that Hall & Oates seemed to use the Prophet 5 quite a lot. Then i thought about that the Prophet could use all it's waveforms in the two oscillators at once which leads to a maximum of 5 possible waveforms playing a t once. Based on this the sound in "Out of Touch" could finally be just ONE synth, a Prophet 5 to be exactly.

It could be one synth, but it's used twice. Listen carefully to that track (the original stereo version). There are two separate brass sounds panned left and right. You can even hear that whoever played these parts did not play in time as some chords start later/earlier, and this can not be done by playing one synth+one patch at the same time. Also, you can't pan on the Prophet 5 like the sound is panned on the recording. Then, the actual sound is simple and does not require all waveforms to be used. There is no mystery here (at least for me).

If someone could give specific hints for improving those sounds any suggestions are welcome

Ingo, the Synthix demo has too much resonance, and is a bit too plastic or uniform. You said that you used chorus in this sound, I'd get rid off it and instead try to detune the oscillators for thicker sound.
The Zeta has also too much resonance and the attack is wrong.
The Prophet V2 does not play for me somehow.
How about doing the original stereo version?

[AdmiralQuality]

Hi everyone,

i just remembered that Hall & Oates seemed to use the Prophet 5 quite a lot. Then i thought about that the Prophet could use all it's waveforms in the two oscillators at once which leads to a maximum of 5 possible waveforms playing a t once. Based on this the sound in "Out of Touch" could finally be just ONE synth, a Prophet 5 to be exactly.

It could be one synth, but it's used twice. Listen carefully to that track (the original stereo version). There are two separate brass sounds panned left and right. You can even hear that whoever played these parts did not play in time as some chords start later/earlier, and this can not be done by playing one synth+one patch at the same time. Also, you can't pan on the Prophet 5 like the sound is panned on the recording. Then, the actual sound is simple and does not require all waveforms to be used. There is no mystery here (at least for me).

I don't hear the two performances. I think you may be hearing a faint slap-back delay.

If someone could give specific hints for improving those sounds any suggestions are welcome

Ingo, the Synthix demo has too much resonance, and is a bit too plastic or uniform. You said that you used chorus in this sound, I'd get rid off it and instead try to detune the oscillators for thicker sound.
The Zeta has also too much resonance and the attack is wrong.
The Prophet V2 does not play for me somehow.
How about doing the original stereo version?

I'd still bet money the original is a double with 2 or more synths. You weren't doing your job as an 80s producer if you only used one synth for one sound. But I do hear two envelopes. I think I hear velocity sensitivity too which would pretty much have to be a DX-7 (or I suppose a CS-80, but the DX was the hot new instrument at this time -- they passed a law in 1983 that all bass and electric piano sounds had to at least have some DX-7 mixed in with them. )

The strongest component sounds like classic Roland-y brass to me, much like many of the examples posted above. In my own example I was actually going more for the other component/layer, which I think is a DX.

[himalaya]

I don't hear the two performances. I think you may be hearing a faint slap-back delay.

That's always a possibility too. But in the original stereo version I have, the two panned sounds also have a slightly different envelope and filter response. More over, the timing discrepancy between the chords of L and R sounds is not uniform, but random, and sound like somebody played two synth parts (overdubbed). (gosh, are we getting pedantic now ).

[Ingonator]

Hi everyone,

i just remembered that Hall & Oates seemed to use the Prophet 5 quite a lot. Then i thought about that the Prophet could use all it's waveforms in the two oscillators at once which leads to a maximum of 5 possible waveforms playing a t once. Based on this the sound in "Out of Touch" could finally be just ONE synth, a Prophet 5 to be exactly.

It could be one synth, but it's used twice. Listen carefully to that track (the original stereo version). There are two separate brass sounds panned left and right. You can even hear that whoever played these parts did not play in time as some chords start later/earlier, and this can not be done by playing one synth+one patch at the same time. Also, you can't pan on the Prophet 5 like the sound is panned on the recording. Then, the actual sound is simple and does not require all waveforms to be used. There is no mystery here (at least for me).

If someone could give specific hints for improving those sounds any suggestions are welcome

Ingo, the Synthix demo has too much resonance, and is a bit too plastic or uniform. You said that you used chorus in this sound, I'd get rid off it and instead try to detune the oscillators for thicker sound.
The Zeta has also too much resonance and the attack is wrong.
The Prophet V2 does not play for me somehow.
How about doing the original stereo version?

Hi Raphael,

I'll try to implement your suggestions. Anyway i'll keep a copy of the original patches as i like them as they are.

About Z3TA+ 2: The attack behavior is differentin it so it's difficult to fix it but i'll try, maybe with using a different envelope slope.


Ingo

[AdmiralQuality]

I don't hear the two performances. I think you may be hearing a faint slap-back delay.

That's always a possibility too. But in the original stereo version I have, the two panned sounds also have a slightly different envelope and filter response.

Yes absolutely, that's why I'm sure I hear two synths, not just lots of waveforms from a single synth. And the different envelope timings can make it sound like slightly different performances.

More over, the timing discrepancy between the chords of L and R sounds is not uniform, but random, and sound like somebody played two synth parts (overdubbed). (gosh, are we getting pedantic now ).

Can't say I'm hearing that, but I don't have a good copy of the song.

I'm a big fan of playing twice rather than simple layering. But again, Layering was the cool new thing then and was just about all MIDI was good for in those first couple of years when there were virtually no MIDI sequencers available. Mono synths had been able to be Gate/CV connected for years, but it was a big deal at the time to be able to play one polysynth from the keyboard of another, so virtually everybody did it. I remember in 1983, bringing my JX-3P over to my friend's who had just bought a DX-7 (these were actually the first two instruments to come out with MIDI). We felt like we were in the future.

[Ingonator]

It's possible that this is somehow a layer of two synths but i'll concentrate on doing patches which come as close as possible with a single synth.

Of course not all synth i used (Prophet V, Synthix, Z3TA+ 2) have a comparable filter and envelopes of the original synth (or synths...) so i could only do approximations.


Ingo

[PAK]

I don't hear the two performances. I think you may be hearing a faint slap-back delay.

That's always a possibility too. But in the original stereo version I have, the two panned sounds also have a slightly different envelope and filter response. More over, the timing discrepancy between the chords of L and R sounds is not uniform, but random, and sound like somebody played two synth parts (overdubbed).

The original extended version has a clearer recording than the other versions I've heard. On that the right hand side clearly lags the left by a little, which is what's creating the feel of stereo width. The right hand track is also EQ'd differently and has a definite high EQ boost to the sound. The timing and frequency differences give the impression of 2 different synths, but the delay actually seems consistent to me, and so I'm thinking it's just an an outboard delay effect EQ'd differently (the EQ differences giving the impression of a different filter/envelope setting being used, and also maybe helping create the impression of small timing differences too).

So my best guess is the synth is a Prophet 5 panned left, through some sort of delay panned right which is using a EQ to boost the upper frequencies and also removing some lower frequency content. Could just as easily be two distinct sounds though. But I don't think it's layered with something like a DX7.

(gosh, are we getting pedantic now ).

Hah. But that's sometimes the way you learn things (well, other than how to waste time )

[PAK]

It's possible that this is somehow a layer of two synths but i'll concentrate on doing patches which come as close as possible with a single synth.

The 8 layers on Synthix will help there. Definitely switch off the chorus and try to create small detunes in the different layers first. Subtle, of course, so it's more chorus effect than super saw. A couple of layers of detuned saw should get the main body of the sound. You could then maybe try adjusting the envelopes slightly so that a more brassy sound punches through a tiny bit before the other saw layers kick in. Then pan some left and some right, and maybe create a small delay only on the right ones